Actually, last year at my catholic school the grade 10 religion classes had an assembly where they did a presentation on birth control and condoms. They explained that abstience was most important, but if you feel your ready to have sex then do it safely.

only coz there forced to, thats harldy sex education. also if they wait till yr 10 to give u advice or birth control ect its almost pointless considering the age people start having sex.

Or rather, when it starts becoming legal.

Abortion is legal in most states although I really feel it shouldn't be, but it is their choice!!!!

I don't know how anyone can say "it shouldn't be legal" how do you know if you'll ever NEED one or WANT one? you don't.

She said she feels it shouldn't be, but you see feelings are one thing, and you can't set laws on the feelings of a few. A democracy is based on the "feelings" of the majority. The majority says yes to abortion in the US, so those against it, while they can protest, that's all they can do.

We also have sex education during health class, this was an extra program.



Hmm, then maybe that would be a good time to talk to students about birth control.

sex should be tackled from earlier ages than the age peopl start to have sex - that is a little too late. Sex is the most natural thing in the world unfortuantly it can have nasty outcomes and devastating concequences. The earlier people are made aware of what happens in their own bodies the risks etc the better I started sex education when i was 12 way before I was thinking about it. The age people are having sex is dropping though - its time sex education was sorted out once and for all to be honest. I've always thought its embarressing though to a have a teacher you reguarly see teach sex ed. and think a seperate unit that goes into schools and teaches THE LOT from puberty to sex education that person goes away and the embarressment is minimised

In my school they don't have a sex ed. class per say, but they teach us about sex in health class, the theology classes, and science classes. Although, they teach us not to use them and the safest thing is abstinence and everything like that... they also teach us about condoms and birth control and the positive and negative effects of each. So we do recieve our own type of sex class.

but if all that is taught is abstinance in other schools then what use is that? If your gonig to have sex then do it safely right?

Yeah, but that's Intelligent thinking. Can't have that.

I completely agree with most of the posts I have read that abortion is wrong!!

Not just because that is my belief and I think it is murder, but I have a friend that has gone through a abortion and it screwed her up for a long time mentally . Yeah, no one ever talks about how if feels afterwards they only think about that second. She is the most liberal friend I have and seemed like a person who wouldn't mind, but it gets in your head. Every anniversary of that she doesn't talk to anyone and stays at home.

Even in the roe vs. wade and she won and got her abortion and then she later became anti-abortionist, I think that speaks for a lot right there. Funny how she got it leaglized and is now against her own cause.

its personal view. Thats why it should remain legal. If you don't agree with abortion don't have one those who do will judge the situation accordingly.. I believe that although personally I believe i wouldnt' have one I am in no state to judge because I havent been in the situation... Whatever happened to doing whats best for the child and having the babies interests at heart?

i don't like when people say "but it was the best for the baby". what the best thing for the baby is to be dead, to never have lived? i just have a problem agreeing with that.

Whats the point in bringing a child into an unhappy life? Is that not worse than death?

Impossible comparison: One does not know what it is like to be dead.

Well, no one that's been there and back. I hear it's quiet though.

Erm, hello, died on the operating theatre some years back, heart stopped, brain activity zeroed, thankfully was brought back.

Dead is, well dead is dead boring.

robb they forgot to put ur heart back

similar experiance 2 robb myself however I was too young to remember it.

How does one know that really was death, and not something very close to it?
However, if what you say is true, I would rather have a crap life over death.

The heart is a liability, it just constantly projectile bleeds into the rest of the body.

I know, lets go bomb large portions of Africa! There are starving children there, let's put them out of their misery.

Certainly reduces poverty.

I know this has been said before, but it's the mother's choice. It's HER baby and body, not yours, so who are you to say it's wrong?

The same people that says it is HER body but not her choice to pump it with god knows what through a needle.
The same people that says it is HER body but not her choice to have a weapon on it and kill people.
The same people that says it is HER body but not her choice to throw it off a cliff.

Also, HER baby? Actually, nevermind.

The same people who say that it's HER body but she can't have any control over whether she wants to reproduce or not (women sure drew the short straw, eh?).

The same people who say that it's HER body but she must do with it what other would will her to do.

People who think gential mutilation/clitoral circumcision would also think a woman's choice is a bad idea. People who think it's okay to stone a woman in the streets for something she didn't do would also think that a woman's choice is a bad idea. People who think that throwing herself on her husband's funeral pyre is a good idea think that a woman's choice is a bad idea. People who think women should be seen and not heard would also think that a women's choice was a bad idea. People who value sons more than their wives would also think a woman's choice was a bad idea. People who think that a woman belongs in the kitchen would think a woman's choice was a bad idea. People who think it's within their rights to beat their wives would think a woman's choice is a bad idea. People who still believe in conjugal rights would also think that a woman's choice is a wrong idea. People who would exercise their control over someone else's body would definitely believe that a woman's choice was a bad idea.

To name a few, I suppose.

So out of control that she had no opportunity to either avoid sex or go through around a dozen contraceptive methods.

And this makes HER different to HIM how?

Meanwhile, back in the western world.

Circa 21st century?

Late 19th Century, men were legally held responsible for ensuring the wife lived in comfort. Late 20th Century, this responsbility extended beyond divorce, as the mother takes with the children, especially following successful (despite unevidenced) allegations of domestic violence, without any chance of escape. Can not pay up? Prison for you? Can not pay up after spending time in prison earning no money? Well, you should have thought about that before you were bankrupted in the first place? Bankrupted? No excuses!

The law says that such people being around in public is a bad idea.

how long will these debates go on before we all have to agree to disagree?

I think you're missing the point

EXACTLY Mas, this IS the Western world, and for all our "moral superiority" and freedoms, shouldn't a woman be granted the right to CHOOSE what goes on with her own body? I note that you refer the blame of pregnancy back to woman in your very first reply in that post of yours. SHE should be responsible for contraception, oh, okay. Well, if you can find an infallible form of contraception that would never let a woman get pregnant while SHE is using it, then perhaps you should tell us all. But we don't expect you to go to much effort regarding that: you're a man after all, it's not your responsibility. Giggle.

In regards to your last comment -- no shit, you don't often see those kind of people in public (unless they are outside a clinic with placards). They are usually rolling in their coffers or hiding behind security guards and trying to enforce their ideals on everyone else in the world. You read my point exactly. Those people telling people what they can do with their bodies and what they won't allow them to do? There are a few of them in this thread, even.

Maybe if you stopped and thought about it for a minute, you could empathise a little. If I were to get pregnant I would certainly want the OPTION of carrying out an abortion should I not be ready for a child. Whether or not I went through with it would be a different matter, but the security of having a say in what goes on with my own body is paramount.

This is my point we at the end of the day none of us wil agree on whether abortion is good bad or whether its indifferent... there is no diffinitve answer. Im not missing the point if you have seen my previous posts regarding abortion DarkSun. By no means do I think that abortion should be made illeagal because I believe in a humans right to choose thus removing abortion would be removing that choice. I actually am beginning to think that this is more simple than all of this. If as a woman I got pregnant and I wanted an abortion, if I didn't I wouldnt have one. My fight here is that its the choice that matters the right to have that choice.

Personal beliefs fit into one of three categories here - "Nope abortion is wrong and horrible its murder/ I wouldnt have one", "If i get pregnant and i want an abortion ill have one/I agree with abortion" or "I dont know I've never been in a situation in which it has been an option". Whatever category people fit into thats fine because thats their choice thats their right as a human let alone as a woman.

I personally do not believe that I would have an abortion however I don't believe that it is wrong. However having been in a situation where abortion was an option I can safely conclude that I would not have one. Many of the people commenting on this subject can't make a difinitive decision because they haven't experianced the situation and you never know how you will react until you are IN the situation. They may agree or dissagree with the principals of it... but I wonder how many would change their minds.

Freedoms result in people taking liberties. I look at the world and see depravity, especially in youth, and I am not even into my twenties! People have so many rights with which I simply will not trust them, simply on account of the fact that they prove me right with every chance they get.

You worded as if she were raped, with absolutely no room for alternative interpretation as far as I could see.
Yes, she should be responsible. Both are responisble. The failure rate of using the pill, the morning-after pill, condoms, and gels/foams* is 0.0012% (2% * 4% * 10% * 15%), or just over 1 in a hundred thousand. This kind of commonality would make abortion acceptible, but no, I feel people treat it is just some alternative form of contraception, a way of making absolutely certain that the body THAT IS NOT THEIRS, (for crying out loud) within their own does not become anything, where they had made little to no effort on reducing the chance themselves.

Do you have anything other than misandry on your mind? Seriously. Does anything on the subject of sex have any other motive, ever? I have never seen such a case, but maybe I am not seeing it through the waves of "Waaah waaah, you said I had to take responsibility, but I HAVE MY RIGHTS, DAMNIT!".

Compared to forcing death on another body because of the collective laziness of two people?



* The order of the percentages coincides with the order of the names of the contraceptive methods. I included ALL TWO non-permanent methods specifically for males, and when used in conjuction (for which they are designed) they manage to only just beat the regularly taken pill. Compare this with female methods. There are SIX of them, the ones missed out being: femidom (12.5%), caps (12.5%), contraceptive implant (4%), and the sponge (17.5%) (0.0109375% used in conjuction with each other, 0.00000013125% if all 8 are used). Just above 1 unwanted pregnancy per 800 million acts of sexual intercourse if you really wanted to try. I know no one would ever go to those lengths, but still, it is perfectly possible to virtually reduce abortion to rape cases.

Edit: (Source: http://www.sex-project.com/contraception.shtml. Any ranges were averaged on the assumption that all values from one extreme to another were uniform in weight overall)
Corrected mathematics, because I forget which numbers I have already multiplied. It seems I can not multiply 8 numbers together and always get the same answer.

If you have such a distaste for freedoms, then why draw me back to a discussion on the "Western" world?

My comment wasn't meant to be read as a rape situation: that's been gone over in this thread enough. It was more the notion that many would wish a woman no right to decide whether she wants to carry a feotus through to full term, regardless of her own situation. My aside indicates this, I think. Women drawing the short straw as in, women are the only ones who are capable of bearing children.

The thing about this "collective laziness", Mas, is that only a woman has to bear the physical brunt of it. While I would never discount the emotional effects on either women or men, the fact of the matter is the woman is the one who has to go through the hormone fluctuations, the morning sickness, the sore back, etc etc. Just because nature charged her solely with gestation doesn't mean that she should simply grin and bear it.

This shouldn't be about why a woman is getting an abortion, it should be about her having the CHOICE. I don't know why you're so hellbent on believing that every woman who has ever had an abortion has been lazy in regards to her sexual health and safety.

I don't know where you are getting the whole misandry deal from. I've not been spouting off about how men are pigs and actively touting extreme lesbianism. I don't know about you, but I certainly don't sit around wondering how I can shout down The Man today. I like how my stance for women's rights and possibly a couple of references to patriarchy (that EXISTS) in other threads has automatically got me the label of "misandrist". Ke te pahea, koe!

P.S. Just because a woman is allowed to choose does not mean she will choose abortion by default.

Here's my opinion:

I think it's wrong for some of you to say that "abortions are wrong". When most of you have never been put in a situation where you had the thought "is it right to put this baby through this?".

Have you ever heard of RAPE?! Do you really think a women needs to bring a child into this world if it comes from a rape? Imagine being young, still in school, having no way of providing for a child. You get raped, and find out you're pregnant. What do you do now? You've just experienced something so horrible, and now you have to face the reality that you're bringing a child into this world. Yes, theirs always adoption, which is an options. But, the concern is... you know nothing about the rapist background. You don't know what he's used (drug wise). You don't know what kind of illnesses and diseases that he has or that run in his family. So do you want to risk bringing an unhealthy, sickly child into this world, do you? Do you realize how much this child could suffer? What if you don't have enough money for medical help? What do you do?

Also accidents do happen, condoms do break, people do get pregnant while using birth control...

People do make mistakes.

I believe that abortion should be a women's choice.

I have a distate for freedoms that I feel detract from responsiblity. What is so wrong about that? I think abortion is being treated as an opporunity to piss all over one's anatomy with impunity. The sex culture does exceptional work to exacerbate it. I understand that banning it achieves nothing in terms of its commonality, and I will not bother to push for it, but that is no reason for me to stop thinking that it is abused. That is no reason for me not to dispute any points raised.

Men can theoretically get pregnant through invitro fertilisation and plying the subject with hormones, only it is potentially fatal. The placenta will be fused to the abdomen, and can only be removed by cutting off the bowels, and there is an enormous risk of haemorrhaging. The only thing that would be going for them in an attempt to get an abortion after a few weeks is death with dignity.

Science gave women six devices that have a collective one in eleven million failure rate, gave men two, with a combined one in sixty-seven. They also gave two surgical options, one for each gender, with a collective three in five million. Women clearly have the opportunity, and yet it is the done thing for people to talk about the part of the man, which, believe it or not, is being played so much more to its potential than that of women.

I do not believe that every woman who has ever had an abortion has been lazy in regards to her sexual health and safety, I do not think that every abortion is the result of women completely neglecting the responsibility they share with the man to uses devices to help prevent it from happening, but do I believe that more than a couple tempt fate.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU LOVE FUHRER! THANK YOU XOXSWEETKISSESXOX! That is at the end of the day all anyone can say that it is CHOICE! It is that simple - dont want one dont have one... want one have one. Deal with the consequences and learn to live with whatever your choices because that is what you do through life. I'm not saying that abortions don't damage people but this is why any good GP makes you go to counselling before and after. Making it illegal is removing the human right to choose which is wrong.

Humans do not automatically have the human right to choose to do things, you know. Even when it is their body.

So why are drugs illegal? Why does self harm lead to sectioning?

Nowhere in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights does it say that a person has the right to do whatever they want with their body.

Abortion happens. My friend got an abortion, I personally wouldn't, and don't say that I've never been put in that situation cuz I have. The decision isn't always that easy to make.

Self harm and drug taking are choices that are made definitivly by an individual they have control over that. You choose to take drugs you chose to harm yourself. You may choose to have sex safely and things could go wrong without anyone realising. Falling pregnant may not be the choice of a female for whatever reason. That is the difference. And as a self harmer... i resent that comment.

Self harming is very different!
So are drugs.

Abortion is only right if it is done in the right stages.
If the vital organs are not formed and functioning okay. But these abortions that people are having now that are after the woman has given birth are ridiculous!

They also need to have the choice.
Because would you rather a woman do it in the back alley or do it herself. Yeahhh those choices are not pretty.

What the hell are you on about? You cannot have an abortion after you have given birth.....you really really need to read over your posts before clicking add reply.

And there was me thinking it was for the high, much like the so-called ecstacy of sex.

Nor is addiction, for anyone.

I don't know what it is exactly but I heard somewhere that some women choose to while their giving birth have their child killed. That is practically the same as abortion.

--------------------
Choice is indeed important....
I believe in the right to choose...the right to CHOOSE what tv show you watch...the right to CHOOSE what clothes you can wear... The right to CHOOSE what you say and believe....the right to CHOOSE who you want to run the country...etc---but there is one choice i can not condone...and that is the choice to outright take the life away from another being. I AM PROLIFE...life is more important over choice anyday of the week.

what are you pro choice for yourself? Certainly the baby never had a choice...you are advocating the right to kill a life (or soon to be life) simply because a woman should have the right to choose if she wants it to live or not????

People use abortions as a form of birth control. Many of those who actually get abortions have already gotten one before. People have unprotected Sex and then look for the easy way out. it is about time people assume some responsibility. Why should you be able to kill a life because you dont want to take care of it?If you dont want a baby dont have unprotected sex.

and yes accidents do happen, condoms do break...blah blah blah. How often does this happen and lead to a pregnancy? How often? really? and what percentage of abortions does this account for? Condoms are 99.9% effective. Even if you use one you should be aware of the risk...but why worry right??? i mean you can go get an abortion if anything happens...:-/ use the pill too- obviously abstinence is the only 100% effective form of birth control... so as long as your having sex---you know theres a risk.



Rape is another extreme example. And i actually agree with you here. If rape can be proven women should have the option of getting an abortion before 3 months. Also if the birth of the child could cause death the the mother the option should be available, or perhaps if the child has debilitating problems in the wound...understandable. There are EXTREME cases.
But...
Most of those seeking an abortion are girls who had unprotected sex and "unexpectedly" got pregnant. If you're mature enough to have sex..then you're mature enough to have a kid. Abortion shouldnt be an option.

Another pro-life abstinence person.......

How many times do we have to say this to you? That doesn't work. You are so pro-life, go adopt all those kids who's parents dumped them on adoption agencies.

And "mature" enough to have sex? 13 year olds are not mature enough to have sex, but they still do, and some of them get pregnant. They are not fit to be parents and that age, hell it would destroy their lives, and what sort of lives could they supply for their offspring? Hell they are nothing but children themselves, they cannot even support themselves.

When it really comes down to it we are all prolife and prochoice. You are either for or against abortion.

I'm for it. Not for myself, but it is the rights of others to choose to do it. I will not impinge my beliefs that they should not do as they wish on them, like the Right Wing Christian Fundamentalists in the US seem to want to do. You don't like abortion? Don't get one. Simple isn't it?

Most teens aren't "mature" enough to take care of children. Would you really want a innocent life a baby, in the hands of a child because that is what a 13 year old is, a CHILD. My friend, had her baby 6 months ago and it's hard for her to leave him. But in my opinion shes a good mother. But she's 16, she still needs a life, of being a teen and she doesn't have that anymore. Before some of these little 13 year old girls go out and have sex, abortion is not easy to go through, they need to think with their brains and not their desire to get laid. If people did that there would be less abortions. Abortion is never going to completly be illegal. So why bother protesting it. So, I think that besides the fact that I think a child is innocent. Many children having babies need to just have an abortion. Motherhood, is not easy. As I have seen from many of my friends.

The war was never going to be stopped, why protest? Why let your beliefs get in the way of a defeatist attitude, eh?

It seems to me that those who would bring a child into a world where they cannot provide it with everything it needs to survive (im talknig food clothes nappies lets forget all the extra stuf people buy because its cute) is selfish. Your not just *beep* up your life then your *beep* up an innocent childs. Maybe I wouldn't have an abortion but i can certainly understand why people do. Love just is not enough to cut it.

Yes that is true! I think that if so many people weren't so stupid, there would be many people with better lives today. Myself personally, abortion is not an option for others however.... they can choose that if they want.