abortion is murder !!!killing kids!!!

Oh for fuck sake, if you don't have an actual arguement do not post.

I'd say "Abortion is murder" is quite a valid argument. It's one I've been debating over several pages, if I recall correctly.

It is, if you back it up. Rather then raging blindly like that person is.

Abortion is WRONG! Don't even bring up the teen girls baby issue. If your a teen girl and you don't want a baby KEEP YOUR DAMN LEGS SHUT. It's fauxed up when people are killing things before those things got to actually live. I think anyone who thinks abortion is a good thing needs to DIEEE. Then we can all have a BBQ in hell. Robb your bringing the hotdogs. OH Yeah,remember me?ROBBY BOY?!LOL j/k hahahhaha.

Another thig...why are 24 year old MEN in a little girls forum thig? sickning. R.kelly

Merged by Robb, learn to use the edit key

I take it you're pro-life?

Keep your grudges or whatever out of Society, please.

That would require a level of intelligence that user does not posses.

Oh don't tell me this crap has leaked on here? Okay, midnight666poison , decide the fact that you're obviously an ignorant child, I'm still going to tell you to shit the fuck up. This "oooh why is a guy on our site" thing is getting waay tiresome. If you were on a site and were told you couldn't be on it because you're a girl you'd rant about sexism etc. So drop the doulbe standards crap!

And calling him Robby boy is just really creepy.

*shudders*

According to midnight666poison, anyone who doesn't agree with Her views needs to DIEEE. Grow the fuck up. Welcome to life, you can't go through life ranting and raving, telling whoever doesn't agree with you to DIEE. What age are you, five?

Stupid child.

Impossible. The hypocrisy in that would be staggering. "Anti-abortion" or "Pro-birth" sound more accurate.

Stabbings all round.
*stab*

As a person I'm incredibly maternal. I love kids and I can't wait to have my own. I don't believe in Abortion. The only times that I would agree with it would be in result of a rape or if in the case of one of my older friends the baby being riddled with disease and having no chance at life (I'm talknig cancers blood disorders(before birth) possible kidney failure once born). However I haven't been in the position where it may be an option. I don't believe in it because I think its wrong but it doesn't affect me right now. But if it ever did in circumstances that were not ideal I don't know how I would feel about it. I don't think anyone should write it off. I think it is arrogant to do so. You don't know how you would react when put into that situation.

I dont believe in abortion at all.... all your doing is killing an innocent human... im reading all this about "but if they were raped" um hello theres a reason for adoption... if you cant take care of the baby let a family that wants kids but cant have any have the baby.

There's also a reason for abortion.

well..im pro choice butit dosent mean i support abortion...i just support a eomans decision over what she wants to do with her body and baby...and all of you that have said people should use contraceptives are toootally wrong cuz if you didint know it sthesam thing as having an abortion! so if your against abortion you sould be agains contraceptives too...a contraceptive kills the egg that has been fertilized by the sperm same thing as aboirtion killing the baby. so yeah im agains abortion but im pro choice...i cant decide weather a woman can keep or kill her baby i have no right...and yes the baby is aliving person buut it is muuch too young to know anything so it really has no vote..cruel as itmay sound..

For me it's really hard to give an opinion. I am pro-choice but there are a few exceptions. If a girl got pregnant and in no possible way she can support the baby she should choose to get an abortion but less than one month after she got pregant. I think it's called a zygote or something for the first month. It still can't think or feel anything probably so abortion wouldn't be so horrible. But if the baby already started developing arms, legs, facial features then it is kind of wrong. The mom should still be able to choose but it would be wrong to kill a baby thats started to develop and everything.

Actually, zygote refers to a fertilised egg that hasn't divided, which it does in a few hours. After that it's referred to as an embryo

The debate is that there is no clear definition of when the embryo can be called a foetus. Medically speaking, it's usually put around the 8th week of pregnancy, but abortions are performed after this.

There is no clear border for when a developing foetus can be said to 'feel', and people have different views on just when it can be said to be 'human'.

No, it doesn't.

Please research contraception before pretending to know anything about it. It makes you look really, really stupid when you don't.

Actually, it's a valid point of view. Highly debatable, but valid.

Many people, especially those of certain religions believe that human life begins at the moment of conception (from that moment the POTENTIAL for human life exists, so arguably you are preventing the development of a human life, even though all that exists at the current stage is a few cells).

Therefore, they are opposed to the use of emergency contraceptives, or the 'morning after' pill, even where they may not be opposed to the use of some other forms of contraceptive.

But conception doesn't occur if you're using hormonal contraception and it's working properly.

I assume she was talking about regular contraception, not emergency contraception.

Nor does it kill the egg. Most contraceptions work by fooling the body into thinking it's already pregnant and stops it from producing eggs. It does not kill it just halts the process. If you don't understand what I mean look it up.

To be honest guys, it's choice. That choice should always be there no matter what peoples opinions are.

I disagree. Abortion is discusting. So you had sex and now regret the child growing in you? Tough luck, give the baby to someone who wants one and be damn proud that you were able to provide an infertile couple with a baby. So you were raped and you're attacker impregnated you? Well I'm sorry for you're pain but you are now responsible for the life growing inside you. Give the baby to someone who will love and take care of it. It's not the baby's fault that you were raped.

Women were given the gift to reproduce for a reason. I'm sure randomly picking which child we want to keep and which one we want to kill wasn't part of the plan.

I'm sorry, but "gift"? Let's talk about certainties here for a minute. Female members of all species can reproduce. It's not a gift, it's just something your phenotype do. There is no "plan" here, just genetics. Do not bring god or religion into it, because do I need to point out the bible condones murder, rape, slavery, and that's just within the immediate family?

Last I checked, nobody was obligated to accept a "gift" they don't want. I'm pretty sure it's legal to destroy a gift someone's given to you, or return it to the store.

What the fuck. A woman gets raped, so she has to put up with a FURTHER nine months of knowing that something she didn't even CONSENT to have growing inside her, a constant reminder of the trauma she has been through, is now HER SOLE RESPONSIBILITY?

Oh, but she has the option of adoption after all of this. BIG FUCKING HAPPY ENDING, huh? A woman who has been raped has had her CHOICE taken away from her in the GROSSEST manner, she should at least have a CHOICE to TAKE BACK CONTROL OF HER OWN BODY, this very same control that had been TORN away from her during a rape attack, and decide whether to keep the foetus or not.

You're goddamned stupid.

Actually I agree with tonight*wedance. Abortion is wrong. You are saying that in the case of rape, the woman should be given the option to abort her child because she shouldnt have to endure nine months of drawn out trauma? One thing I hate is ignorance. Clearly you aren't aware of how many support groups there are out there specifically created for the purpose of helping women in these situations. In fact there are many women who get through this trauma and learn to not asssociate the rape with their child and learn to love there child. Also, (another thing many people are ignorant on ..usually because they witness too many TV shows which mis inform them) it is pretty RARE for a woman to get pregnant in a rape situation. The body is alot smarter then you think. When in a rape situation the body goes into a kinda of shut down mode to prevent and unwanted pregnancy. So often times woman don't become pregnant from rape. Now I'm not saying this is always the case. There ARE woman who do become pregnant because some over possessive male forced himself on her. However, this in no way shape or form condones abortion. Abortion is basically, in my eyes, a liscence to kill. You are condoning the murder of an innocent child. I don't care about all these things people say about 'well actually its not legally a child while its still in the womb'...so the law says the unborn child isnt legally a person eh? Well I believe at one point the law ALSO considered women to not legally be people. Slaves werent legally people either. So you say 'So what? That was then this is now." Exactly, this is NOW, and as a society it is our responsibilty to stop this unjust act. However, what sickens me more is the fact that we, in Canada at least, pay for women to have abortions. Our tax money pays for women to have abortions for free. So we are basically spending 3 billion dollars a year to allow women to kill children. To further demonstrate the unjustice of this, Canada allows women to have abortions at ANY POINT during their 9 months of pregnancy. If they wish, a woman can have her child aborted the day before giving birth.
Another issue pro-abortionists and pro-choice people argue is that if a woman finds out her child is going to be severly disabled, the child is better off not being brought into the world. Well I have personally known a case where a girl was told her child would never be able to walk or function properly because of extra fluid in the brain. She considered abortion as an option but in the end decided to go through with having the child. Her baby was born perfectly fine and is able to function just like any other child. There are so many cases in which a misdiagnoses can occur and the baby is delivered with no mental, or physical disabilites. Whether or not a child has disabilites shoulnd't be a deciding factor for abortion. What if you knew someone with a disability? Would that make them less lovable, are they in some way less of a person? No. They are entitled to the same rights as everyone else.
Also, abortion being legal in Canada has proven to show a rise in teen pregnancy. More and more girls are getting careless and becoming pregnant. Once a girl is over the age of 14 in Canada, she can walk into a clinic, have an abortion, with have a guardian present or even notified. Now tell me, what message does that send out to teens today? It tells them that they can have sex and if they get pregnant, hey they can get a free abortion without their parents ever knowing.
To add ANOTHER point, abortion isn't exactly the safest thing in the world. Alot of things aren't. But I personally know a girl who got pregnant in grade 9 (GRADE 9!!!!) and she was so scared to tell her parents that she was pregnant, so she went to a clinic in Toronto to have her child aborted. While there, the doctors did NOT put her asleep. They went to give her the gas but apparently they didn't check to see if she was fully unconcious before starting the porcedure. She was conscious, and actually witnessed pieces of the fetus going through a tube. Basically, the procedure was done sloppy and unprofessional...they literally butchered her. In her later years she got pregnant again and ended up having a miscarriage. The cause? The doctors determined that because of the previous abortion, one of her falopian tubes was completely destroyed and she was lucky that the damage wasn't much worse.
I'll probably get 'ralled' for this, and no doubt people will argue tooth and nail. But I've said my piece, and believe I've done it in a mature matter, unlike some other comments that have been posted here.

Hardly. I just have my own opinion. And in my own OPINION I believe that once the woman is impregnated the baby becomes her responsibilty. Sure that's unfair, she's pregnant without her own consent. But guess what. Not everything in life is fair. Is it fair that there are hundreds of infertile women out there who will never have the ability to give birth? And all these babies that could be put up for adoption for them are being ripped apart because the mother doesn't want the responsibilty. I disagree with you, but I'm not going to call you stupid for having your own opinion.

Whoa now a baby isn't a gift. but i damn well hope tonight*wedance that you are never raped and impregnated for your sake. Mainly because it is SO easy for you to say "give it to someone who wants a baby" but somehow you don't think about that when you've been raped.

Personally I believe that a baby IS a gift. And while I've never been in a rape situation (and while I can understand what you're saying) I'd hope I could rely on the support on my friends and family to get me through any trauma and to help me make a positive decision regarding my childs well being. Because it is MY child as well, not just my attackers.

And I'm going to assume that you've been raped? Because why else would you know what goes through a victims mind after a rape?

Because some of us have had friends who have been.

Do you know how hard it is for a child to be adopted at the moment? It can take YEARS, tonight*wedance. And while we all have our opinions, our do not result in more people taking up precious little money and straining orphanages even more.

One of the reasons why it takes so long for a couple to adopt a child is because of the extensive time it takes for the adoption agency to approve the couple. Not because of the amount of children.

I know someone who waited four years to adopt a child, and then ended up giving up and going to China and adopted a baby girl in a year.


I understand how having an abortion is "taking the easy way out" because once the procedures over, its over. No more baby. But I personally don't believe it is necessary. And if abortion was illegal and wasn't practiced then it would at least make teens think more carefully about having sex because once they're pregnant that's it. No easy way out. They must carry the baby for the full term and later decide to keep it or put it up for adoption.

I notice that you are very fond of the words "many"and "most" and "a lot" in your posts, pimp_tease. I'm just curious as to why the ones who don't fall into the category should be denied what is a human right -- to control their own bodies, and not be forced into going through with something that could be detrimental to themselves? You also go on to tout the dangers of abortion: what about the dangers of pregnancy and birth? Do you think a 13-year-old is well-enough developed physically, let alone MENTALLY, to deal with the birth of a seven pound child?

While you provide a valid argument with the "legal persons" debate, the flaw in that argument lies in the notion that the feotus is not a person. YES, it is a human, but no, it is NOT a person. The feotus has no concept of self. That is the main difference between legalising the citizenship status of women and slaves: these people have had experience, life experience that has shaped them from a general human into a person, consisting of a personality, an imagination, etc. This isn't the cutesy intro to "Look Who's Talking".

Perhaps one of the most mind-boggling things I have been reading in the last two or so pages is the insistence on the total responsibility that a WOMAN has foisted on her because she happens to be biologically capable of carrying a child. You know what? It takes two to tango, and I can't believe that two people -- let alone to girls -- would accept that it could perhaps be morally/ethically right to assume the sole responsibility for the foetus falls upon the woman. And anyway, if you insist still upon her complete responsibility then it could also be argued that she, then, gets to make the decisions for the betterment of her and the feotus.

Please, be there and give the support to your friends if they one day choose to get an abortion. Maybe then you will see why the arguments for pro-choice exist. This is the 21st century ladies, a woman should have the reproductive right NOT to carry a feotus to full term.

EDIT: if abortion was illegal you wouldn't have teens stopping and pondering the meaning of life, you would have backyard abortions with coat-hangers, girls throwing themselves off rooves in the hope of miscarrying, and drinking poison. You're being a tad idealistic there.

Also, since when did this become simply about teenagers? There are women who are already mothers, women who are career-minded, women who are simply not prepared for a child who go for abortions, too. Just needed to point that out.

About 1,000,000 illegal abortions a year before 1973, directly resulting in 5,000 deaths a year, complications killing... uh... all the rest?

And we're worried about dead babies that would have been just as dead if the condom didn't split?

WOW some people need to fucking well wake up! Like Love said, women should have the right. And for tonight wedance to even imply that anyone else is ignorant is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Abortion is NOT taking the easy way out in any way, shape or form. Damn I'm so angry now!

I think you're DEAD wrong in thinking that people would think carefully about sex as a result of illegal abortion. It's illegal in Ireland and we have plenty of unplanned pregnancies, believe me. Women have committed suicide over it. Your words "well i'm sorry for your pain" sicken me.

My words "well i'm sorry for your pain" are actually true. I'm not being sarcastic. My best friends sister was taken advantage of. She's 19 now but when the attack happened she was 15. She was a virgin and was attacked in a bathroom at someones house party. She wasn't impregnated, and thankfully the attack lasted less then two minutes. And she shares the same views I do. She's pro-life. She was attacked, and raped by someone she trusted yet she still stands against abortion. So it's not like I'm against all women here and saying we should have no control over our bodies, what I'm saying is that if you are carrying a child, it is YOUR child as WELL as the rapists. So it is YOUR responsibilty.

What sickens ME is the thousands of aborted babies. And even worse is what pimp_tease mentioned. Mothers aborting their child because it might be mentally challenged or disabled. My brother has Cerebral Palsy. He can't walk, and he isn't where he should be mentally for his age. But who cares? It makes him no less of a person. WHY does the fact that a child is going to be disabled make it okay for an abortion. Why should the mother be able to choose to kill her child because of it's physical/mental features? AND as pimp_tease stated not all of these diagnoses are correct! So the mother could have killed a perfectly healthy baby because of the possiblity that it would be mentally challenged and not be able to fully function. That to me makes no sense.

It doesn't really matter, it's not your choice on weither they keep it or not. If the do keep it is a living example of the pain they suffered through. Some people just can't take it and therefor have the right to get an abortion. They didn't ask for it, they didn't do anything to deserve it, so why should they?

By you saying that the baby is the rapee's as well as the rapist's, essentially you are saying that the baby's responsibility is going to fall solely on the mother. PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG, but what rapist is going to come forward and admit to his crime because he feels an obligation toward the would-be mother and child? "Oh honey, well I know I will probably get charged and maybe even sentenced for grossly sexually assaulting you, and I know you can't stand to look at my face considering what I did to you, and I know a baby is expensive and will probably drain my assets a great deal, but don't you think we can work it out for the sake of our ill-begotten kid?"

DIDN'T THINK SO.

Nice evasion of the "making abortion illegal will stop teens from having wanton sex" argument. Not one thumbs up but TWO!

That point being brought up is good though.

Imagine if it were illegal to abort a baby. How would society be right now? Like tonight said, I am pretty sure teenagers would get away from sex, or actually go off using condoms, or not walk around alone, when you know there are rapists around.

I know that women have a right to choose whether or not they want to have a baby. They should've chosen that before having sex. And if it is a rape situation, once again, nobody told you to go and walk out alone. It's not a person's fault, yes I know, but those are probably the main reasons why people are raped, or are pregnant.

No, they wouldn't Linda. Trust me on that one. Condoms split, rare, but it happens, women are raped, and as a result become pregnant. Now if it is the persons responsibility, as everyone is saying, then it is also their choice. And if they choose not to have the child, well that's how it is.

In Ireland abortion is currently illegal, but abortions still happen, and people die because they are done badly, or they go to England. Just because certain people don't like it doesn't mean it should not happen. Want to get down to it, EVERYONE is pro-life, you are just for or against abortion. Don't see pro-lifers stopping someones burial do you?

Yes, the only reason I walk around alone is because I think to myself, "It's okay for me to walk around alone, abortion is legal!"

I love how you're advocating a world where women are too afraid to go outside alone.



What the *beep*? The main reason that women are raped is because they walk around alone?

The main reason people are raped is because men (and the occasional woman) DELIBERATELY CHOOSE TO *beep* RAPE PEOPLE.



Ok, great. I'm choosing not to have a baby. Now I'll go have sex, and if by some chance I get pregnant, I'll get an abortion.



It is. Infanticide is illegal.

For all you people who say that it's just a ball of cells who cares if we kill it or not


Aren't we all just a ball of cells?

So if i walked into the middle of times square in NY with a machine gun and opened fire, all those people i killed, it really wouldn't matter would it?

You have no idea we dance. you are the ignorant one here. There is no way in this world that any support group can make that feel better than any from of support would make that worth it... nine months of knowing that i have to carry a baby because some *beep* arsehole didnt want to listen to me say no. I don't agree with abortion but in this case I do when it comes to rape I do. I want kids more than anything else in this entire world but with someone i love that can help me provide the sort of home children need. not because someone just got turned on and couldn't get it in any other way.

I don't understand how people claim that murder is bad, and abortion isn't. Explain.

Technically the foetus has no idea of self, thus is not a person. A human yes but not a person. Murder tends to be of those that are not within a females womb. However it is not what I believe. I believe all rape victims that become pregnant from their attack should have the right to an abortion. I will always believe it. Aways. But like I say any baby that i concieve with a loving partner wil not be aborted unless in can be conclusivley proved to me and my partner that that child would have NO quality of life. I believe in doing the best for children I may bear. Being the son or daughter of a rapist not being able to look at them or love them is not the best thing for them. neither is ruining their lives by putting them in care and waiting for them to be fostered or adopted and waiting for them to come looking for me... only to be told their birth mother doesn't want anything to do with them. That is not the best for a child.

I'm pretty sure this is the exact same argument we had pages ago that I was involved in.

Firstly, I point out once again that a foetus is a seperate entity and thus the argument that "women should be allowed to have control of their body" falls flat, because it is not their body they're destroying. As a human, the foetus, regardless of whether or not is possesses self-awareness, has every right to be alive, and if you support abortion, no matter how good your intentions are, no matter how much you claim you do it so that the women involved do not have to suffer, you are supporting humans being denied their right to live.

Now, I disagree that a woman who has become pregnant due to rape has a responsibility towards her child, because she never wanted it in the first place. That's like saying if someone comes to your house, dumps a baby there and then disappears without a trace, it is now your responsibility. It isn't. However, just because you are not responsible for someone does not mean you are justified in killing them.

Secondly, to those becoming angry and offended and flinging insults, shut up, go away and learn to detach yourselves emotionally from a debate before returning.

I never said anyone was ignorant. Pimp_tease made many "I can't stand ignorance" remarks.

Not me.

If it's a seperate entity though, then wouldn't that mean that technically it could survive without the mother? The part that I don't agree with in that argument is that the foetus can't survive/develop without the mother, it's using her body to develop inside. THAT is how she should be allowed the right to control her own body. If there was another option for growing foetuses that didn't involve them being in-utero and this argument came up, then I probably wouldn't support it, because it's not involving the body of another woman. I do, however, acknowledge your human rights comment as a valid standpoint. I simply feel that abortion should be legal because it is more often than not a much safer way to deal with an unwanted child than attempting to create your own miscarriage. Compounding on this is my belief that women are more than baby-machines, hence they should have the choice.

A woman should have a right to decide what happens to her body, including whatever is growing inside. A foetus can't sustain itself without her, she is its vessel if you will, it's in her body and her body is hers to control.

By the same logic, however, a siamese twin should be within his rights to kill a sibling who makes use of the his organs to survive. That twin is still its own entity, just as fungus growing on a tree is its own entity.

I do agree that the illegalisation of abortion would most likely lead to women undergoing unsafe, illegal operations, or perhaps even trying to give themselves abortions, but that doesn't have any bearing on the morality of the act in and of itself.

That has to be the only post in the past few pages that would not have everyone up in arms.