look here i have come to the conclusion that abortion is just not the way to deal with things take action for your own responsibilityz abortion is murder!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyways,  the unlawful killing of one human by another.

How can abortion be murder if it's just getting rid of a clump of cells? That doesnt constitute as a human being yet.

Well, since you want to play the semantics game...

un·law·ful 
  1. Not lawful; illegal.
  2. Contrary to accepted morality or convention; illicit.

Thank you dictionary.com.

And at what point does it constitute a human being, exactly? Aren't we all clumps of cells?

I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born.

Depends. Lots of people have different thoughts on when life starts. Some think upon conception, some believe when there's a heartbeat. I think once the nervous system is developed and brain is functioning thats when life starts. the law must feel the same way, because most abortions done after that time are highly illegal.

abortion is the mothers decision and no one else has a say in it at this point.

Well I will just state I think that guys being all up in arms about abortion is a little daft. Because last time I checked it really does not involve them. I think it should ultimately be a decision decided by women. Because I just dont think it is logical for a man to dictat what a woman can and can not do with her own body.

But it takes two to get the woman, well girl in some cases, into that situation. Surely the father has some say?

Yes of course. But I am saying that guys who go around protesting abortion really have very little reason to do so. Sure they may be oposed to the idea about it. But I still think it is kind of stupid to try to force people into their way of belief when they are not women, and will never experience what comes with pregnancy.

And archaon the whole "baby being a sperate entity" thing. I may come of as an ass or something. But I still think a fetus is not even human in the time allowed to have an abortion and thusly, I do not think it can be considerd a seperate entity because it is not capable of individual thought.

That is totally irrelevant. Just because you yourself are never going to experience something doesn't mean you should not be opposed to it or protest that it is unethical.

Killing for your convenience is not acceptable.

But, surely, some peoples' opinions should be held in higher regard than others' due to their personal connections to an issue.

If you're talking about a war, whose opinion are you going to give more weight to:

It's incredibly easy to talk about unwanted pregnancy due to rape as a minor inconvenience and abortion as the easy way out when you know for a fact that these are decisions you will never be faced with.

And that is an opinion, not a fact.

If you say it doesn't depend on anything, then is killing a spider for your own convenience unacceptable?

In my opinion, killing an embryo or fetus inside your body for your own convenience is perfectly acceptable.

Like I've stated several times, however, that has no bearing on whether it is or it isn't.

Hey, you're right. Absolutely. Since you're supporting this logic, then, I suppose you wouldn't mind if I went over there and killed you and your whole family so that the food you would otherwise have consumed can go to feed some hungry children. Deal?

Is a mother going to die if she gives birth? No. Is a baby going to die if it gets aborted?

You have yet to put forward any sort of logical argument as to why this is not the case.

1st- please do not threaten people here, its very rude and immature.

2nd- yet, actually that would be logical of you- but according to you killing is JUST wrong (by the way, just because YOU say it's a fact doesn't make that a 'logical reason' Your logic makes as much sense as 1+1=100) so you wouldn't do it, but I really don't care and my family here wouldn't care cuz we would be dead and then you can't care.

Yes, a mother could die- have you been out in the world at all?

And as I have said, YOU have made no logical sense since the very beginning. All you say is what you think are facts -which aren't facts if so many people disagree with them- and who told you these 'facts'? You don't believe in God, so what magical creature or 'logic' as you like to call it, is giving you this all-knowing information?

FACT "2+2=5 is wrong"

OPINION "Abortion is wrong"

FACT "Water has hydrogen in it"

OPINION "It is wrong to kill for your own convenience"

FACT "Frogs are not mammals"

OPINION "Murder is wrong"

FACT "The moon is not made of cheese"

OPINION "Killing a human is worse than killing an animal"

Are you noticing a pattern yet?

FACTS are things that can be proven to be true using EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE.  Ie, evidence gained from the use of the five senses.

Moral statements like "killing is wrong" are OPINIONS because they cannot be proven using empirical evidence.  There is a reason why statements like "killing is wrong" are called moral statements and not statements of scientific fact.

Sure, some moral statements are MORE logical than others.  But they are still just that.  Moral statements.  Opinions.  NONE of them are facts.  Ever.  Unless you're using a VERY loose definition of "fact".  One that doesn't, actually, resemble the actual definition of "fact" at all.

Logic and nothing more. If people were allowed to freely kill anyone, whenever they wanted, for their own benefit, it would be a huge detriment to us as a species. That is why it is wrong.

If you can explain to me why this is not the case, do so.

I'm sorry, what? I'm pretty sure that if I were deaf, blind, paralyzed, unable to taste and smell, 2 + 2 would still be 4.

So you're saying it is not a fact that it would be a problem for us to live if people were allowed to walk into your house, kill you and take your possessions whenever they felt like it.

Theft is wrong because it would be detrimental to us. Murder is wrong because it would be detrimental to us. And so on, and so forth. These are facts. Show me how they are not.

Logic and nothing more. If people were allowed to freely kill anyone, whenever they wanted, for their own benefit, it would be a huge detriment to us as a species. That is why it is wrong.

If you can explain to me why this is not the case, do so.

Wrong to whom? Us? Sure! It's 'wrong' to humans- but what makes us so important to this world or universe? From FACTS all around us, we are terrible creatures and at least nature would be better off without us. You assume human life is the best kind there is- that is an opinion for sure- no denying THAT what so ever.

Right and Wrong do not apply to everything in the Universe, or even this planet.

Is it morally wrong for an animal to kill a human- no, that is nature, and as humans come from nature, then humans kill it is the same thing.

If you wish to use the terms lightly, including your supossed 'facts', then that's fine. But is not JUST IS. That is an opinion. You have not seen all there is to see in this existance to know what JUST IS for everyone and everything.

It is a PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY to prove - by any perfectly ablebodied person with any amount of technical equipment - that killing a fetus is wrong.

Nice job twisting that statement!

Yes, it's a fact that it would be a "problem".  It can be proven that it would be a problem.  Please quote where I said it is a fact that it would not be a problem.

It is not a fact that it is morally wrong.  It is not a fact because moral statements BY THEIR VERY DEFINITION cannot be factually right or wrong.

Eating food that is high in fat is detrimental to us.  Is it a fact that eating fatty food is therefore morally wrong?

They are not facts because the word "wrong", as I already explained, when used in the context of a moral dilemma is a value judgement.  It is an opinion.  Unless it can be proven empirically that something is wrong, then the word "wrong" remains an opinion.  I really don't know how you can't grasp this concept.

mor·al

1. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.

Humans not being killed at complete random = good. Humans being killed at complete random = bad.

judg·ment also judge·ment    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (jjmnt)
n.
The act or process of judging; the formation of an opinion after consideration or deliberation.

The mental ability to perceive and distinguish relationships; discernment: Fatigue may affect a pilot's judgment of distances.
The capacity to form an opinion by distinguishing and evaluating: His judgment of fine music is impeccable.
The capacity to assess situations or circumstances and draw sound conclusions; good sense: She showed good judgment in saving her money. See Synonyms at reason.
An opinion or estimate formed after consideration or deliberation, especially a formal or authoritative decision: awaited the judgment of the umpire.
Law.
A determination of a court of law; a judicial decision.
A court act creating or affirming an obligation, such as a debt.
A writ in witness of such an act.
An assertion of something believed.
A misfortune believed to be sent by God as punishment for sin.
Judgment The Last Judgment.

mor·al    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (môrl, mr-)
adj.
Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.
Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.
Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.
Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certainty.

I really don't know how you can't grasp the concept that murder is wrong because it would be massively detrimental to us as a species if it were allowed, but there you go.

mor·al

1. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.

Humans not being killed at complete random = good. Humans being killed at complete random = bad.
.

That does not making humans killing humans is 'bad' a fact. It is personally 'bad' to the one being killed and perhaps the species, but that does not make it a 'fact'. If it was a fact it would apply to all things.

I'm beginning to think that trying to explain the difference between "fact" and "opinion", and "science" and "morality" is a futile endeavor. You would think the definitions would speak for themselves!

If you're going to argue semantics, perhaps you should look up the words in the definition you're using first.  Take judgment for example.

The mental ability to perceive and distinguish relationships; discernment: Fatigue may affect a pilot's judgment of distances.
The capacity to form an opinion by distinguishing and evaluating: His judgment of fine music is impeccable.
The capacity to assess situations or circumstances and draw sound conclusions; good sense: She showed good judgment in saving her money. See Synonyms at reason.
An opinion or estimate formed after consideration or deliberation, especially a formal or authoritative decision: awaited the judgment of the umpire.

As you can see, your moral judgements about murder being good or bad are OPINIONS.  They are SOMETHING BELIEVED.

I also noticed that you left out one of the other definitions of moral.  Let's look at the full definition (hey, it looks like it's even from the same dictionary that you were using!).
mor·al    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (môrl, mr-)
adj.
Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.
Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.
Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.
Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certainty.

IT'S NOT BASED ON ACTUAL EVIDENCE.  If something is not based on actual evidence, it's not a fact.

Please read my posts more carefully.  Please quote where I said that murder is not wrong.

It is my OPINION that murder is wrong.  I think that murder is morally wrong.  Since moral statements involve judging and judging involves forming an opinion,

that means that is my OPINION that murder is wrong.  All I said is that it is not a FACT that murder is wrong.  Stop twisting my words.

That does not making humans killing humans is 'bad' a fact. It is personally 'bad' to the one being killed and perhaps the species, but that does not make it a 'fact'. If it was a fact it would apply to all things.

I've already explained how it would be detrimental to every species that exists, but fine. Have it your way. Murder is only factually wrong as it applies to humans. There you go.

Wahooo!.... So it's not A fact, of the all-forever, all-considering facts.

Yay! I have been waiting forever for this kind of post, I would of did it just didn't know if I could. I think I have put my option on this subject before I will do it again.!


Okay now, Let’s take a look at the definitions of murder and abortion.

Murder-
The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Abortion-
Termination of pregnancy and expulsion of an embryo or of a fetus.

These two definitions may sound different, but as you read into them, they begin to show signs of similarities.

Let’s take a look at the differences first of all.

1. Murder is unlawful, and abortion is lawful.
2. Murder is outside of the womb, Abortion is inside of the womb.

Now let us look at the similarities

1. They both involve killing another human being.
2. They are both premeditated.

Looking at the differences, my goal is to change number one, and number two, it shouldn’t matter where anyone is! If I lived in a hole, would it matter if someone killed me there instead of at an office building? No! It isn’t any different here.

Now let us look at the similarities. They both involve killing another human being! Some would say that the embryo isn’t a human being yet. I don’t buy it. It breathes and thinks. That is good enough for me. Also, the abortion is completely premeditated. They plan out the abortion very clearly down to the minute it will happen.

After looking at those facts, I believe that abortion is murder after you break it down.

Now let’s look at the less judicial part of it. The ethics.

Some teenagers may say, “I can’t handle the responsibility or it wasn’t my fault.”

To that, I say bull! First of all, you shouldn’t having been having sex out of wedlock, second of all, if you are, take birth control. Do not ruin a young baby's life just because you are selfish!

Second of all, the lawmakers say that it reduces the population. Put the babies up for adoption! Put them with a loving family! Don't be a vampire and steal their life, be a life giver!



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`


*NOTE*: THIS IS NOT FOR THE WEAK AT STOMACH :*NOTE*

Just read...

Dear Mommy, I am in Heaven now, sitting on Jesus' lap. He loves me and cries with me; for my heart has been broken. I so wanted to be your little girl. I don't quite understand what has happened. I was so excited when I began realizing my existance. I was in a dark, yet comfortable place. I saw I had fingers and toes. I was pretty far along in my developing, yet not near ready to leave my surroundings. I spent most of my time thinking or sleeping. Even from my earliest days, I felt a special bonding between you and me. Sometimes I heard you crying and I cried with you. Sometimes you would yell or scream, then cry. I heard Daddy yelling back. I was sad, and hoped you would be better soon. I wondered why you cried so much. One day you cried almost all of the day. I hurt for you. I couldn't imagine why you were so unhappy. That same day, the most horrible thing happened. A very mean monster came into that warm, comfortable place I was in. I was so scared, I began screaming, but you never once tried to help me. Maybe you never heard me. The monster got closer and closer as I was screaming and screaming, "Mommy, Mommy, help me please; Mommy, help me." Complete terror is all I felt. I screamed and screamed until I thought I couldn't anymore. Then the monster started ripping my arms off. It hurt so bad; the pain I can never explain. It didn't stop. Oh, how I begged it to stop. I screamed in horror as it ripped my leg off. Though I was in such complete pain, I was dying. I knew I would never see your face or hear you say how much you love me. I wanted to make all your tears go away. I had so many plans to make you happy. Now I couldn't; all my dreams were shattered. Though I was in utter pain and horror, I felt the pain of my heart breaking, above all. I wanted more than anything to be your daughter. No use now, for I was dying a painful death. I could only imagine the terrible things that they had done to you. I wanted to tell you that I love you before I was gone, but I didn't know the words you could understand. And soon, I no longer had the breath to say them; I was dead.I felt myself rising. I was being carried by a huge angel into a big beautiful place. I was still crying, but the physical pain was gone. The angel took me to Jesus and set me on His lap. He said He loved me, and He was my Father. Then I was happy. I asked Him what the thing was that killed me. He answered, "Abortion. I am sorry, my child; for I know how it feels." I don't know what abortion is; I guess that's the name of the monster. I'm writing to say that I love you and to tell you how much I wanted to be your little girl. I tried very hard to live. I wanted to live. I had the will, but I couldn't; the monster was too powerful. It sucked my arms and legs off and finally got all of me. It was impossible to live. I just wanted you to know I tried to stay with you. I didn't want to die. Also, Mommy, please watch out for that abortion monster. Mommy, I love you and I would hate for you to go through the kind of pain I did. Please be careful.

Love,
Your Baby Girl

you yourself said you are pro-choice.

" however i can tell other people wat to do so if there that ignorant n irresponsible then thats there problem!!"

What the *beep*?? sexiwytegurl, do you have the audacity as to imply that you can tell other people what they can do with their bodies? I sincerely hope that was a typo. Ah the old "well you had sex so deal with the consequences" argument. What a load of *beep*.

Actually getting an abortion isn't ignorance, it's the complete opposite. It is applying knowledge to solve something that is viewed as a problem.

The only one who appears ignorant here is you. While in your view it is wrong, in others it is not. It is as simple as that. Also would it kill you to use the spell check function?