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bitterlysweet
QUOTE (dear materialista @ Feb 21 2005, 08:36 PM)
What if I chose to have sex for reasons other than procreation?  Some people never want to have children.  Should they never have sex?

Whether you like it or not, abortion IS a way of dealing with it.  If I happened to get pregnant today, abortion would be my method of "dealing with it" and "taking responsibility." Just because someone doesn't make the same choice you would make, doesn't mean they're not taking responsibility.

Isn't it selfish to bring an unwanted baby into the world?  If you can't trust someone with a choice, how can you trust them with a baby?
*


that is exactly my thought on abortion. i think you made a good point not just on this reply but in other replies about abortion too.
Sweethang002
"How do we know that we are ending a potential life?" -SexyFencey (sorry for spelling it wrong before-my mistake)

In what ways is it not a potential life? Whether you believe it is alive at conceivement or alive three months later, you do believe that eventually it will become a living person & will have life-correct? We do know that a fetus is potentially a human.
Robb
I term alive when viable brain activity takes place. Until then you are just a bunch of cells with no ability to be classed as a thinking or feeling entity.
dear materialista
QUOTE (Sweethang002 @ Feb 22 2005, 05:52 PM)
"How do we know that we are ending a potential life?" -SexyFencey (sorry for spelling it wrong before-my mistake)

In what ways is it not a potential life? Whether you believe it is alive at conceivement or alive three months later, you do believe that eventually it will become a living person & will have life-correct? We do know that a fetus is potentially a human.
*


Sperm has the potential to eventually become a life. Is contraception and masturbation bad too?

Eggs have the potential to eventually become a life. Every time you have your period, you lose an egg. Is this wrong of you?
kittenJanine
no thats not the same because the egg needs something to make it produce life but featus if just left there would just carry on growing on its own.
Suzy
You don't have to abstain from sex. There are these things called condoms, and there are also birth control pills.

Pro-lifers annoy me. If you walk down O'Connell's street in Dublin, they're out in full force with their graphic pictures, pamphlets and petitions. If you try to side-step them, they start shouting at you, calling yo a baby killer. Soon as uoi get there you have to cover your child's eyes.
Robb
Indeed, they are traumatizing young children with those images. It seems that once they baby is born they no longer give a damn. Hypocrits.
kittenJanine
yes there are loads of contraception but some relgions even say no to that i mean come on!!! You may not only get pregnant but loads of STIs and stuff.

My friend reckons shes pro life but it seems to me she chooses one life over another. For example she didnt donate to the tsumami because she wanted go to the cinemas. So i dont think shes pro life, she just thinks babies are cute. Anyway, my point way if you are pro life, she should be pro ALL life not just when it comes to abortion, many are but some are not.
dear materialista
(most) Pro-lifers stop caring about people once they've been born
PiNkDiAmOnDz06
i am for abortion.. its not killing somebody and its not like the baby is developed.. its a small celled blob basically.. its not murder.. teen sex is a way of life and isnt wrong and if they do not want to carry a baby for nine months then give it away to strangers that is thier choice.... and i think some religions are against adoption so therefore the mother would have to care for her child at the age of 13???? jeez.. ok in china some female babies are killed because the population is to high..... see now that is murder.... this fetus hasnt experienced anything and doesnt know anything.... if i got pregnant today id choose to have an abortion because i cannot care for a child and such.. when most abortions take place is during the first or second month of pregnancy.. not 9 months when a child is being killed... and that letter the monsters and mi arms and legs are being sucked off.... thats bull because it is a cell.... a cell doenst have arms and leag... jeez ppl reality check...

and most girls that go thru pregnancy go thru depression and have more chances of dropping out of school....
kittenJanine
The way i see it is a woman will not go for abortion without serious thinking involved, if she does then its right for her. If the abortion is made with little or no though the chances are she wouldnt be a very good mother
xbrokenxinsidex
abortions are good for rape cases b/c rapes arent ever expected.. but some people abuse the privledge ike whores off the street that kno they've has unprotected sex n kno the risks involved and uses it as a way out.. i also think some teenagers do that to b/c they kno they are sexually active n they get all embarassed to get condoms r birth control n stuff but thats bull its even more embarassing to drop out of school in the middle of high school n work at mcdonalds for the rest of ur life. i definitely do not think its murder thats just stupid.. murder is for a human being, the stage of the pregnancy when the abortion is done they arent developed there it is not a human being there for it is NOT murder
mary2689
abortion= murder.... and thats all there is to it
Mas Tnega
Murder is the unlawful termination of a life of one human by another. Abortion's not against the law... yet.
Sweethang002
QUOTE (Mas Tnega @ Apr 3 2005, 07:42 PM)
Murder is the unlawful termination of a life of one human by another. Abortion's not against the law... yet.
*

\
So, because it's lawful it's moral? Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's right. For example, the ownership of a person was at one point legal. Slavery still wasn't moral although legal. It was as wrong then as it is now.
Lindsey
QUOTE (Sweethang002 @ Apr 3 2005, 08:24 PM)
So, because it's lawful it's moral? Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's right. For example,  the ownership of a person was at one point legal. Slavery still wasn't moral although legal. It was as wrong then as it is now.


Yes, because whats moral varies amongst different people. And where do you draw the lines? I mean, if they were to make it illegal, would they make ALL abortions illegal even if the pregnancy was an endangerment to the mother and fetus as well? or would they just make them both die because abortion isn't "moral"?

honestly, to make it illegal would mean people would have to come up with some serious boundaries that people can not agree on. I see abortion staying legal for a long time. It's the women's rights to decide if she wants to carry an unwanted child or not
BloodCoveredStar
I'm not going to state whether I'm pro-life or not because it's a touchie touchie subject for me. However I found this about someone that is a pro-lifer and I don't know if it's been posted, so I thought I'd share it.

QUOTE
"The unborn differs from the newborn in four ways, none of which are relevant to its status as a human being. These four ways are:
1. Size
The unborn are smaller than newborns, but when has size had anything to do with the rights people have? Men are generally larger than woman, does that mean they deserve more rights? Is Shaquielle O'Neal more of a person than feminist Gloria Steinem simply because he is larger? Clearly size is not the issue.
2. Level of development:
True, the unborn are less developed than newborns, but this too is morally irrelevant. A newborn for that matter is less developed than a toddler. A toddler is less developed than an adolescent. An adolescent is less developed than an adult. But we speak of all as equally human. Is a child of four, for example, less of a person because she has not developed sexually? Should we kill a handicapped child whose brain function is less than that of a newborn?
3. Environement:
True, the unborn is located in a different place, but how does a change in location suddenly change a non-human entity into a human one? Did you stop being human when you walked from your hours to the car or from the kitchen to the den? Clearly, whereone is had no bearing on who one is. A child in the incubator of her mother's womb is no less a child than the one being sustained by neonatal technology. I know, for example, of a baby girl named Rachel who was born at 24 weeks. (That's not even 6 months into the pregnancy) At the time of her birth, she weight less than a pound and could fit in the palm of your hand. The hospital staff worked heroically to save her life and now she is a healthy toddler. But let's assume that instead of saving baby Rachel's life at 24 weeks, the doctor came into her room and killed her while she was resting in her father's hand. We would consider than an outrage, wouldn't we? But do you know that the same baby Rachel, that very same baby girl, can be killed through legalized abortion through all nine months of pregnancy simply because she is located six inches from her mothers womb?
4. Degree of dependancy
If viability is what makes one human, then all those dependent on kidney machines, heart pace-makers, and insulin would have to be declared non-persons. There is no ethical difference between an unborn child who is plugged into and dependent upon its mother and a kidney patient who is plugged into and dependent on a kidney machine. "
kittenJanine
If it is made illegal it will solve nothing whats so ever! It will just force the abortions into back alleys where loads have things will go wrong. Dont like abortions, dont have one but who are YOU to impose YOUR morals on anyone else?
Mas Tnega
QUOTE (Sweethang002 @ Apr 3 2005, 08:24 PM)
So, because it's lawful it's moral?
Who said anything about morality? I just said it wasn't murder.

In regards to unborn and newborn comparison, what stage is this pro-lifer comparing? After a certain point (ie second trimester and beyond), this argument is invalid, as abortion is regulated/prohibited by state anyway.

QUOTE
It will just force the abortions into back alleys where loads have things will go wrong.
As did happen for decades before abortion was legal (1967 in UK).
kittenJanine
Abortion is a morality issue...whether you think its right or wrong, whether you see it as murder or not so I said it was about morals.
Robb
It is about morals. It is the moral right of the person who wants it to decide to have it. Not some prolifer. Not some prochoicer. The person involved.
Sweetpea_1240
I think that its the womens body and it should be her choice, not the goverenment... But personally if u were the child don't u think you would rather not be born then live in the system all your life?Or having an a horrible horrible life, and knowing your parents didn't want you? I don't know maybe its me but i wouldn't want any of those! I just don't want it to be taken advantage of! Thats my only concern.
wILiCuaGaIn
Great argument. I totally agree. God bless! ~Siara~

QUOTE (I babygirl I @ Sep 26 2004, 07:46 PM)
Yay! I have been waiting forever for this kind of post, I would of did it just didn't know if I could. I think I have put my option on this subject before I will do it again.!


Okay now, Let’s take a look at the definitions of murder and abortion.

Murder-
The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Abortion-
Termination of pregnancy and expulsion of an embryo or of a fetus.

These two definitions may sound different, but as you read into them, they begin to show signs of similarities.

Let’s take a look at the differences first of all.

1. Murder is unlawful, and abortion is lawful.
2. Murder is outside of the womb, Abortion is inside of the womb.

Now let us look at the similarities

1. They both involve killing another human being.
2. They are both premeditated.

Looking at the differences, my goal is to change number one, and number two, it shouldn’t matter where anyone is! If I lived in a hole, would it matter if someone killed me there instead of at an office building? No! It isn’t any different here.

Now let us look at the similarities. They both involve killing another human being! Some would say that the embryo isn’t a human being yet. I don’t buy it. It breathes and thinks. That is good enough for me. Also, the abortion is completely premeditated. They plan out the abortion very clearly down to the minute it will happen.

After looking at those facts, I believe that abortion is murder after you break it down.

Now let’s look at the less judicial part of it. The ethics.

Some teenagers may say, “I can’t handle the responsibility or it wasn’t my fault.”

To that, I say bull! First of all, you shouldn’t having been having sex out of wedlock, second of all, if you are, take birth control. Do not ruin a young baby's life just because you are selfish!

Second of all, the lawmakers say that it reduces the population. Put the babies up for adoption! Put them with a loving family! Don't be a vampire and steal their life, be a life giver!



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`


*NOTE*: THIS IS NOT FOR THE WEAK AT STOMACH :*NOTE*

Just read...

Dear Mommy, I am in Heaven now, sitting on Jesus' lap. He loves me and cries with me; for my heart has been broken. I so wanted to be your little girl. I don't quite understand what has happened. I was so excited when I began realizing my existance. I was in a dark, yet comfortable place. I saw I had fingers and toes. I was pretty far along in my developing, yet not near ready to leave my surroundings. I spent most of my time thinking or sleeping. Even from my earliest days, I felt a special bonding between you and me. Sometimes I heard you crying and I cried with you. Sometimes you would yell or scream, then cry. I heard Daddy yelling back. I was sad, and hoped you would be better soon. I wondered why you cried so much. One day you cried almost all of the day. I hurt for you. I couldn't imagine why you were so unhappy. That same day, the most horrible thing happened. A very mean monster came into that warm, comfortable place I was in. I was so scared, I began screaming, but you never once tried to help me. Maybe you never heard me. The monster got closer and closer as I was screaming and screaming, "Mommy, Mommy, help me please; Mommy, help me." Complete terror is all I felt. I screamed and screamed until I thought I couldn't anymore. Then the monster started ripping my arms off. It hurt so bad; the pain I can never explain. It didn't stop. Oh, how I begged it to stop. I screamed in horror as it ripped my leg off. Though I was in such complete pain, I was dying. I knew I would never see your face or hear you say how much you love me. I wanted to make all your tears go away. I had so many plans to make you happy. Now I couldn't; all my dreams were shattered. Though I was in utter pain and horror, I felt the pain of my heart breaking, above all. I wanted more than anything to be your daughter. No use now, for I was dying a painful death. I could only imagine the terrible things that they had done to you. I wanted to tell you that I love you before I was gone, but I didn't know the words you could understand. And soon, I no longer had the breath to say them; I was dead.I felt myself rising. I was being carried by a huge angel into a big beautiful place. I was still crying, but the physical pain was gone. The angel took me to Jesus and set me on His lap. He said He loved me, and He was my Father. Then I was happy. I asked Him what the thing was that killed me. He answered, "Abortion. I am sorry, my child; for I know how it feels." I don't know what abortion is; I guess that's the name of the monster. I'm writing to say that I love you and to tell you how much I wanted to be your little girl. I tried very hard to live. I wanted to live. I had the will, but I couldn't; the monster was too powerful. It sucked my arms and legs off and finally got all of me. It was impossible to live. I just wanted you to know I tried to stay with you. I didn't want to die. Also, Mommy, please watch out for that abortion monster. Mommy, I love you and I would hate for you to go through the kind of pain I did. Please be careful.

Love,
Your Baby Girl
*
Robb
Must you dredge up an old post? Can you not post your own opinion?
wILiCuaGaIn
Sorry, I just read the rules. I agree that abortion is murder, no matter what 'stage' it is in, it is a human. period. If you were raped, it might be God's will for that baby to be born, some of the greatest people in history came from bad situations. And otherwise, you CAN help from getting pregnant. Now, I don't agree with having pre-marital sex, but everyone has their own opinions, so I think you shouldn't be having sex if you don't want to risk getting pregnant! Or use birth control! No, it's not 100% reliable, but why turn to murder? If you DID have the baby and at, let's say, 2 he becomes a pain and throws temper tantrums all the time, would you take him home and SUCK his brains out? Or shoot him? Or drug him or ANYTHING like that?? It's the same thing, period.
That is why I believe abortion is wrong.

Thank you! wink.gif
Robb
Not everyone, once again, believes as you do and as your religion. Shouldn't they have the right to make up their own mind?

Also depending on the stage of pregnancy the nervous system and heart have not started operating. Those are both required to be classed as "alive". Hence an abortion before those occur is not killing anything that is sentient.
Mas Tnega
One thing I noticed about that similarity in that GARGANTUAN quote, it says both are premeditated, but says nothing about malice.

Malice: A desire to harm others or to see others suffer; extreme ill will or spite.
The intent, without just cause or reason, to commit a wrongful act that will result in harm to another.
dear materialista
QUOTE (wILiCuaGaIn @ Apr 7 2005, 02:50 PM)
If you were raped, it might be God's will for that baby to be born, some of the greatest people in history came from bad situations.
*


So it's not enough for you that women should have to suffer through the horrible pain of being raped - but you think that they should have to suffer through the pain of having to carry a reminder of their rape in their body for nine months?

Yet more evidence that pro-lifers stop caring about people once they've been born.
wILiCuaGaIn
I will remain calm, no matter how I feel. please have the same respect.
First- you don't know what my family or I have been through, and I don't know what you've been through, so let's be some-what open-minded.
(Second) It's hard to explain, because I don't want it to seem like I'm saying God wants us to hurt, so don't get that idea.
But God knew about our sin and fault and took in into consideration so that it would become something good. He hurts when we hurt, but we all sin and fall short and consequences come of it. I'm also NOT saying that the woman raped was doing something wrong, it IS NOT her fault, but God can use that situation to make it positive.
(Third) I DO care about all people outside of the womb and you can't judge or assume and say that I don't.
(Fourth) "Yet more evidence that pro-lifers stop caring about people once they've been born." You stated it as an absolute fact, while, in fact, it is NOT fully true, and I highly doubt that ALL or ANY pro-LIFErs stop caring about people outside the womb.

I don't know what else to say, do you have a specific question? I will answer it to the best of my ability, but I do not have all the answers.

QUOTE (dear materialista @ Apr 7 2005, 04:07 PM)
QUOTE (wILiCuaGaIn @ Apr 7 2005, 02:50 PM)
If you were raped, it might be God's will for that baby to be born, some of the greatest people in history came from bad situations.
*


So it's not enough for you that women should have to suffer through the horrible pain of being raped - but you think that they should have to suffer through the pain of having to carry a reminder of their rape in their body for nine months?

Yet more evidence that pro-lifers stop caring about people once they've been born.
*

kittenJanine
No, not ALL pro lifers stop caring...some do, that IS a fact. I mean they may not turen into hitler or anything but they just arent as willing to stand up and fight for human rights when the baby is a bit older.
Robb
wILiCuaGaIn at this stage I feel the need to point out the rules of the Society section. Religion is not a good enough reason for being for or against abortion mainly because not everyone believes in the same things.
Mas Tnega
QUOTE (wILiCuaGaIn @ Apr 7 2005, 08:43 PM)
I will remain calm, no matter how I feel. please have the same respect.
First- you don't know what my family or I have been through, and I don't know what you've been through, so let's be some-what open-minded.
Likewise you nothing about anyone else's.

QUOTE
(Second) It's hard to explain, because I don't want it to seem like I'm saying God wants us to hurt, so don't get that idea.
But God knew about our sin and fault and took in into consideration so that it would become something good. He hurts when we hurt, but we all sin and fall short and consequences come of it. I'm also NOT saying that the woman raped was doing something wrong, it IS NOT her fault, but God can use that situation to make it positive.
You say he can, but does he?

QUOTE
(Third) I DO care about all people outside of the womb and you can't judge or assume and say that I don't.
Have you then considered the aftermath of the birth? What becomes of the child? An eternity in an orphanage? A life of being resented because of how they came to be?

QUOTE
(Fourth)  "Yet more evidence that pro-lifers stop caring about people once they've been born." You stated it as an absolute fact, while, in fact, it is NOT  fully true, and I highly doubt that ALL or ANY pro-LIFErs stop caring about people outside the womb.
It's a generalisation, and a popular one. Hence it holds enough truth to be said.
kittenJanine
QUOTE (Mas Tnega @ Apr 7 2005, 09:00 PM)
QUOTE
(Third) I DO care about all people outside of the womb and you can't judge or assume and say that I don't.
Have you then considered the aftermath of the birth? What becomes of the child? An eternity in an orphanage? A life of being resented because of how they came to be?

*



family is the most important thing and to know that when you were born you were un wanted? No, thats not nice. I would rather have NOT been born that thrown around place to place, unwanted, un loved.
Suzy
A funny thing happened to a friend of mine. She was five years old at the time, and was walking through Dublin city in her father's arms, and he was holding her younger brother by the hand. A pro-lifer stopped him and tried to get him to sign a petition against abortion, and he side-stepped her. She then followed him down the road yelling "baby killer" and so forth. I will remind you that he was holding two small children.

Just a humourous anecdote, if you walked down O' Connell's street, you would understand. The pro-lifers are there, with all the grapjic pictures out, so yes I know very well what an aborted foetus/embryo looks like. Anyway, you can say that abortion is wrong and murder and playing God all you like, but the facts still stand.

Okay, suppose you find out you're pregnant, and it's unwanted. You're too young, and/or don't have the money, or you never wanted children. This baby is unwanted and unplanned. So you have it, and it grows up knowing that it was never wanted, because kids pick up this. If you don't have the money, it grows up in unproper care.

I know that it seems like it's glibly erasing a mistake that could have been a human life, but you ruin two/three lives without it. And on of the reasons that you can't have an abortion past a certain date is SO THAT THE EMBRYO ISN'T SENTIENT. Do your biology, and I mean BIOLOGY not pro-life propaganda, and you will see that the nerve endings do not develop early on.

Oh and if God's idea of "making something positive" out of a rape is to have the woman get pregnant by her rapist, wILiCuaGaIn, then he's sick and twisted.
bmine
Okay lets say u were raped by a family memeber and u got pregnant yet u told no1 u were raped or peregnant but one of ur close friends.Ur a 14 yr old freshman active in sports at school, cheer and so forth..Do u secretly get an abortion or purposely try to miscarriage or would it be better to ruin ur life and families with a baby...Wat would u do???Is abortion still wrong
kittenJanine
Well, one i wouldnt suggest doing ANYTHING in secret. You need to talk it all out with friends, family and people who know about this kind of stuff. It different for everyone! Also that person should tell the police but i know thats not the point you are making. I think it would hurt her family more if she went and had an abortion without looking at all the possibilities...i think that was a rather silly post to be quite honest. By the way, pregnancys from rape a really rare. Ive seen stats and they are rare.
Luvinbball44
Im against abortion.... its still killing a person who knows that person might have grown up and made a cure for cancer!
Mas Tnega
Who knows, maybe that bum on the street could have achieved the same feat.
kittenJanine
Or the aborted child may have turned out to make america a dictatorship and kill all the christians. You cant think like that.
Suzy
What ifs are always fun.
What if it started raining chickens?
What if an aborted embryo had grown up to be another Hitler?
What if all Christians renounced their faith?

You should focus on what has happened, not what could happen.
severe injection
QUOTE (Luvinbball44 @ Apr 7 2005, 06:29 PM)
Im against abortion.... its still killing a person who knows that person might have grown up and made a cure for cancer!
*

and this is a defense for life?
A cure for aids would by good, but not cancer. People need to die, if everyone was living until age 85 do you know how over populated the world would be? And how much we would be paying in social security? Our quality of life is based on the principle that people die.
kittenJanine
Sexyfency!!!!! THAT WAS WAAAAAAAAAY insenstive. Yes people need to die but cancer is a horrible horrible diease to die from. If cancer didnt exist not everyone would ive to 85! No way! If there is a cure for cancer than that is a huge break through and if you stupidenough to ignore it i only hope you die, painfully from cancer just like my nan.
Mas Tnega
There's worse. I hear that avian flu isn't one to get, even if it is growing into a pandemic.
Suzy
If it wasn't cancer, there'd be some other killer disease then. Things evolve over time. If a disease can be cured, then a worse one'll come along, or the disease itself will mutate.

But anyway, my point is that what ifs are not grounds for or against abortion. Yeah the person could have developed a cure for all disease, but they could also become someone that made Hitler look like a cuddly teddy bear. So leave the "yeah but they could've been" stuff out.
MiSS_L0VER
I'm REALLY against abortion.. i just think it's so wrong unless you got raped or somthing like that.. I guess i just think that if you know you were going to have sex and you're to young, at least use protection, even though you still could have a baby but i think abortion is murder..

thats just my opinion..so don't get mad
Mas Tnega
QUOTE (Suzy @ Apr 8 2005, 09:59 PM)
If it wasn't cancer, there'd be some other killer disease then. Things evolve over time. If a disease can be cured, then a worse one'll come along, or the disease itself will mutate.
Proof that the Earth wants to remind us that we won't ever rule it, just the inhabitants.
Suzy
Yup yup yup! It's all a simple cycle. In the natural world, suppose there are too many carnivores and they kill all the herbivores, so then there aren't enough herbivores to feed them, so the carnivores starve to death, giving the herbivores a chance to repopulate, and it all begins again.

It's just the same. Nature's cool, but don't *beep* it off.

But I realise that this is way off topic, so yeah, I'm pro-choice. You have to think about AFTER the birth as well. It's all been said.
Anathema
If you have a child that you can't care for, put it up for adoption. Give it one last chance at a semi-decent life. Or not, but it's entirely up to you.
kittenJanine
Bleak, yes its UP TO YOU! not the governtment, not the "pro lifers"
Robb
QUOTE (Bleak Harvest @ Apr 9 2005, 08:58 AM)
If you have a child that you can't care for, put it up for adoption. Give it one last chance at a semi-decent life. Or not, but it's entirely up to you.
*


And that there is the pro-choice ideal in a nutshell. YOUR CHOICE.
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