Full Version: Abortion
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Maybe it was where Jesus was a feminist, or something.
You know what if the girl didn't want the baby too bad. You know what is an option? ADOPTION. The only reason I can see for abortion is being raped. That would probably be the ONLY one.
There are already too many kids in adoption centres. They are spending their lives there. They are draining reserves of cash that could be used to help those already alive.
It's a very sticky moral issue to say the least.
It's a very sticky moral issue to say the least.
QUOTE (SexYGiRliE93 @ Sep 26 2004, 06:27 PM)
Well, my original post said "fabulous" in place of "good thing" and I'm not exactly sure how that's not making sense or "offensive", but whatever.
Anyways, to get the discussion rolling:
-It's a woman's right to choose what she does with her own body.
-Pro-life people often say that you shouldn't have sex unless you're willing to deal with the consequences. Well, abortion is a way of dealing with it.
-Don't like abortions? Don't have one.
Carry on, now.
Anyways, to get the discussion rolling:
-It's a woman's right to choose what she does with her own body.
-Pro-life people often say that you shouldn't have sex unless you're willing to deal with the consequences. Well, abortion is a way of dealing with it.
-Don't like abortions? Don't have one.
Carry on, now.
-It's a leader's right to choose what she/he does with her own country.
-Pro-life people often say that you shouldn't live under the rule of a despot unless you're willing to deal with the consequences. Well, genocide is a way of dealing with it.
-Don't like genocide? Move somewhere else.
Ouch... while this is a touchy subject for me, as I can't really take a firm ground on either side, I believe your comments to be....harsh.
First off, the "Abortions are a way of dealing with it" for having sex and making a "mistake" is wrong in my eyes. If you can't deal with the consequences, don't have sex. Abortion results in the death of another human being. The next president, someone who creates a cure for aids, etc. Sure, it may be like the lottery, but what right does a person have to destroy another living human being. IMHO abortion is murder, but in some cases you have to look at the greater good.
A woman who has an abortion to avoid the consequences of sex is in the wrong IMHO. She has no right to take the life of another human being because of her recklessness, that's like drinking and driving. Drinking and having sex can cause death as well, as long as abortion is legal. Forgetting to use protection and then killing the child is not a very good way to deal with these issues. If there is no reason a woman cannot bear the child then abortion is not a viable option. There is always adoption, everyone deserves a chance at life.
Would it not be more logical to kill every person with a contagious possibly life threatening disease? Abortion is the killing of a human being that is not necessarily going to cause anyone any harm, and could cause much good. Where as say, a person with aids could potentially spread aids to myself, so should they not be killed so as to protect my body? I mean, its my choice because its my body right? They could endanger me, so I should remove them.
Now, in some cases the baby could cause complications, death, etc for the mother. In such cases I believe abortion is an option because there is a possibility of the mother and the child both dying. I see no reason to risk the deaths of 2 people when the death of the unborn baby ensures the mother's continuing health, but if the mother has no health risks associated, and nothing bad will come of it except a little weight loss and some stretch marks then why kill a human being?
So for me to be "pro abortion" would mean that I would have to stand for killing anything that could potentially cause harm to myself, right? Abortion is not the answer for the "Well, it was a mistake" or the "I don't want it now" mothers, that's just wrong. You have no right to kill another human because of your mistake. Abortion is all about looking out for yourself with complete disregard for another human life that your, in your inifinite wisdom, made. The purpose of sex is procreation. There is no denying that sex was made to procreate. The goal of having sex is to achieve orgasm, and what happens at orgasm?? Exactly...so you can't deny that during the act you don't know what you're doing. If a person isn't mature enough to understand the consequences of having sex, they obviously shouldn't be having sex.
So as for abortion, I believe it to be a selfish act. Should we not exterminate anyone who is not up to standards as well, perhaps cull the herd. I mean, since abortion is good for the mother, perhaps we should broaden our view from a selfish self centered one to one that is "good for the whole". We should remove all diseased people, all people who are unable to contribute to the greater good of humanity. Such would be abortion on a larger scale, instead of being a selfish act done by a woman who makes a mistake, a large scale removal of those who do not meet the standards of society would make up for "sexual" mistakes of society as a whole, such as spreading of STDs, mentally disabled, etc.
The only difference between genocide and abortion is the number of human beings being slaughtered. If its a woman's body, is it not a leader's country? Was not hitler correct in his removal of all "inferior" humans, humans he considered a "mistake" and did not want? If a woman has the power to decide to kill another human being if its is inside her womb, should it not be the right of a leader to decide whether a person in his territory should die or not? Who's to say a despot's country is not as sacred to him as a woman's body is to her. It all comes down to how you look at it, what's more important...your desires, or the greater good of humanity.
Note: I obviously disagree with "death" in general unless there is a very very good reason. Everyone has the right to life, and the choice to take that away is extremely selfish. I was just proving the point that death is death, no matter what excuse you use to cover up for murder its still murder.
[quote=Amon,Nov 17 2004, 10:20 AM]
-It's a leader's right to choose what she/he does with her own country.
[/quote]
-
It's a leader's responsibilty to do what is best for the people
[quote] First off, the "Abortions are a way of dealing with it" for having sex and making a "mistake" is wrong in my eyes. If you can't deal with the consequences, don't have sex. Abortion results in the death of another human being. [/quote]
A human being that never truely lived in the first place.
[quote] There is always adoption, everyone deserves a chance at life. [/quote]
No there isn't, not until gay couples have a half decent chance of adopting.
[quote] Abortion is the killing of a human being that is not necessarily going to cause anyone any harm, and could cause much good. [/quote]
And dumping them in places forgotten is going to let them cause this good?
[quote] Where as say, a person with aids could potentially spread aids to myself, so should they not be killed so as to protect my body? I mean, its my choice because its my body right? They could endanger me, so I should remove them. [/quote]
Or you could just not have sex with them, it's not exactly something with difficult options that are all equally undesirable.
[quote ]The purpose of sex is procreation. There is no denying that sex was made to procreate. [/quote]
Explain the a-spot.
[quote] The goal of having sex is to achieve orgasm, and what happens at orgasm?? [/quote]
6 seconds of absolutely no thought, a one-ness with one's god(s), some may think.
[quote] Should we not exterminate anyone who is not up to standards as well, perhaps cull the herd. I mean, since abortion is good for the mother, perhaps we should broaden our view from a selfish self centered one to one that is "good for the whole". We should remove all diseased people, all people who are unable to contribute to the greater good of humanity. [/quote]
You mean, kill all those people who are actually wanted and loved?
[quote] Such would be abortion on a larger scale, instead of being a selfish act done by a woman who makes a mistake, a large scale removal of those who do not meet the standards of society would make up for "sexual" mistakes of society as a whole, such as spreading of STDs, mentally disabled, etc. [/quote]
Hey! I have disabilities, and I'm far smarter than a lot of you. A lot of people who know me would be annoyed if you did it. Killing an unborn child just annoys pro-lifers, who don't know the child, WON'T know the child, and once they're born, WON'T CARE about the child. It's not like they're going to adopt these children that people are killing, is it now?
[quote] The only difference between genocide and abortion is the number of human beings being slaughtered. [/quote]
"A death of one, a tragedy. A death of a million, a statistic"?
[quote] If its a woman's body, is it not a leader's country? Was not hitler correct in his removal of all "inferior" humans, humans he considered a "mistake" and did not want? If a woman has the power to decide to kill another human being if its is inside her womb, should it not be the right of a leader to decide whether a person in his territory should die or not? Who's to say a despot's country is not as sacred to him as a woman's body is to her. It all comes down to how you look at it, what's more important...your desires, or the greater good of humanity. [/quote]
Can you really call them a leader, when the point of democracy is have power for the people? Is it not true that should be more like representatives? A woman represents herself, and the whole of herself wants the child gone. A "leader" represents a country, and the country are questioning whom the leader is benefitting.
[quote] Everyone has the right to life, and the choice to take that away is extremely selfish. [/quote]
A woman gives birth to a child, having decided previously that she would stick them among another 20 or so. There are thousands of these groups of children. What a waste of life, taken away before their born. How selfish.
edit: The hell? Is BBCode gone or something?
-It's a leader's right to choose what she/he does with her own country.
[/quote]
-
It's a leader's responsibilty to do what is best for the people
[quote] First off, the "Abortions are a way of dealing with it" for having sex and making a "mistake" is wrong in my eyes. If you can't deal with the consequences, don't have sex. Abortion results in the death of another human being. [/quote]
A human being that never truely lived in the first place.
[quote] There is always adoption, everyone deserves a chance at life. [/quote]
No there isn't, not until gay couples have a half decent chance of adopting.
[quote] Abortion is the killing of a human being that is not necessarily going to cause anyone any harm, and could cause much good. [/quote]
And dumping them in places forgotten is going to let them cause this good?
[quote] Where as say, a person with aids could potentially spread aids to myself, so should they not be killed so as to protect my body? I mean, its my choice because its my body right? They could endanger me, so I should remove them. [/quote]
Or you could just not have sex with them, it's not exactly something with difficult options that are all equally undesirable.
[quote ]The purpose of sex is procreation. There is no denying that sex was made to procreate. [/quote]
Explain the a-spot.
[quote] The goal of having sex is to achieve orgasm, and what happens at orgasm?? [/quote]
6 seconds of absolutely no thought, a one-ness with one's god(s), some may think.
[quote] Should we not exterminate anyone who is not up to standards as well, perhaps cull the herd. I mean, since abortion is good for the mother, perhaps we should broaden our view from a selfish self centered one to one that is "good for the whole". We should remove all diseased people, all people who are unable to contribute to the greater good of humanity. [/quote]
You mean, kill all those people who are actually wanted and loved?
[quote] Such would be abortion on a larger scale, instead of being a selfish act done by a woman who makes a mistake, a large scale removal of those who do not meet the standards of society would make up for "sexual" mistakes of society as a whole, such as spreading of STDs, mentally disabled, etc. [/quote]
Hey! I have disabilities, and I'm far smarter than a lot of you. A lot of people who know me would be annoyed if you did it. Killing an unborn child just annoys pro-lifers, who don't know the child, WON'T know the child, and once they're born, WON'T CARE about the child. It's not like they're going to adopt these children that people are killing, is it now?
[quote] The only difference between genocide and abortion is the number of human beings being slaughtered. [/quote]
"A death of one, a tragedy. A death of a million, a statistic"?
[quote] If its a woman's body, is it not a leader's country? Was not hitler correct in his removal of all "inferior" humans, humans he considered a "mistake" and did not want? If a woman has the power to decide to kill another human being if its is inside her womb, should it not be the right of a leader to decide whether a person in his territory should die or not? Who's to say a despot's country is not as sacred to him as a woman's body is to her. It all comes down to how you look at it, what's more important...your desires, or the greater good of humanity. [/quote]
Can you really call them a leader, when the point of democracy is have power for the people? Is it not true that should be more like representatives? A woman represents herself, and the whole of herself wants the child gone. A "leader" represents a country, and the country are questioning whom the leader is benefitting.
[quote] Everyone has the right to life, and the choice to take that away is extremely selfish. [/quote]
A woman gives birth to a child, having decided previously that she would stick them among another 20 or so. There are thousands of these groups of children. What a waste of life, taken away before their born. How selfish.
edit: The hell? Is BBCode gone or something?
[quote] -It's a leader's right to choose what she/he does with her own country. [/quote]
It's a leaders duty to obey the people and do what is best for the majority of the people.
[quote] -Pro-life people often say that you shouldn't live under the rule of a despot unless you're willing to deal with the consequences. Well, genocide is a way of dealing with it. [/quote]
Abortion is not genocide, it is not the wiping out of a whole race.
[quote] -Don't like genocide? Move somewhere else. [/quote]
Go to china, the practice it quite often. Or Iraq, or any country where they let their religion dictate the killing of anyone who is not the same.
[quote] First off, the "Abortions are a way of dealing with it" for having sex and making a "mistake" is wrong in my eyes. If you can't deal with the consequences, don't have sex. Abortion results in the death of another human being. The next president, someone who creates a cure for aids, etc. Sure, it may be like the lottery, but what right does a person have to destroy another living human being. IMHO abortion is murder, but in some cases you have to look at the greater good. [/quote]
That is why contreception was created, sex with no procreation. Also a bunch of cells is not a human being. A human being is a human being.
[quote] A woman who has an abortion to avoid the consequences of sex is in the wrong IMHO. She has no right to take the life of another human being because of her recklessness, that's like drinking and driving. Drinking and having sex can cause death as well, as long as abortion is legal. Forgetting to use protection and then killing the child is not a very good way to deal with these issues. If there is no reason a woman cannot bear the child then abortion is not a viable option. There is always adoption, everyone deserves a chance at life. [/quote]
Ok drink-driving is bad, not question there. But there is nothing wrong with sex, also see my previous comments about it. Some people do not want to be parents, should they be stopped from having sex? No. Sex is for procreation yes, it is also very enjoyable, it has evolved that way.
[quote] Would it not be more logical to kill every person with a contagious possibly life threatening disease? Abortion is the killing of a human being that is not necessarily going to cause anyone any harm, and could cause much good. Where as say, a person with aids could potentially spread aids to myself, so should they not be killed so as to protect my body? I mean, its my choice because its my body right? They could endanger me, so I should remove them. [/quote]
It's not a case of the child causing harm, it is the case of the person perhaps not being suitable parent or not wanting to be. As for you wanting to get aids, well go ahead that is your body, that is your choice.
[quote] Now, in some cases the baby could cause complications, death, etc for the mother. In such cases I believe abortion is an option because there is a possibility of the mother and the child both dying. I see no reason to risk the deaths of 2 people when the death of the unborn baby ensures the mother's continuing health, but if the mother has no health risks associated, and nothing bad will come of it except a little weight loss and some stretch marks then why kill a human being? [/quote]
See my previous comments, ie unsuitable parent, or not wanting a child. 14 year old kids should not have kids. Ok they should not have sex either, but that is not the discussion here.
[quote] So for me to be "pro abortion" would mean that I would have to stand for killing anything that could potentially cause harm to myself, right? Abortion is not the answer for the "Well, it was a mistake" or the "I don't want it now" mothers, that's just wrong. You have no right to kill another human because of your mistake. Abortion is all about looking out for yourself with complete disregard for another human life that your, in your inifinite wisdom, made. The purpose of sex is procreation. There is no denying that sex was made to procreate. The goal of having sex is to achieve orgasm, and what happens at orgasm?? Exactly...so you can't deny that during the act you don't know what you're doing. If a person isn't mature enough to understand the consequences of having sex, they obviously shouldn't be having sex.[/quote]
Sex was not "made" it evolved. Yes it is for procreation, but once again it is enjoyable. But as for the maturity, I agree. But I have sex, I am not ready to be a parent. If the condom splits and Aoife gets pregnant, we may have an abortion as we are not ready to be parents yet. We may be mature enough to support the child, but that is beside the point.
[quote] So as for abortion, I believe it to be a selfish act. Should we not exterminate anyone who is not up to standards as well, perhaps cull the herd. I mean, since abortion is good for the mother, perhaps we should broaden our view from a selfish self centered one to one that is "good for the whole". We should remove all diseased people, all people who are unable to contribute to the greater good of humanity. Such would be abortion on a larger scale, instead of being a selfish act done by a woman who makes a mistake, a large scale removal of those who do not meet the standards of society would make up for "sexual" mistakes of society as a whole, such as spreading of STDs, mentally disabled, etc. [/quote]
You forcing others not to have abortions because you do not like them is just as selfish. And you are approaching nazism with your "culling the herd" comment.
[quote] The only difference between genocide and abortion is the number of human beings being slaughtered. If its a woman's body, is it not a leader's country? Was not hitler correct in his removal of all "inferior" humans, humans he considered a "mistake" and did not want? If a woman has the power to decide to kill another human being if its is inside her womb, should it not be the right of a leader to decide whether a person in his territory should die or not? Who's to say a despot's country is not as sacred to him as a woman's body is to her. It all comes down to how you look at it, what's more important...your desires, or the greater good of humanity. [/quote]
Genocide is the destruction of a race. Not abortion. Also a persons body is more their own concern then a leaders country. Once again perspective.
[quote] Note: I obviously disagree with "death" in general unless there is a very very good reason. Everyone has the right to life, and the choice to take that away is extremely selfish. I was just proving the point that death is death, no matter what excuse you use to cover up for murder its still murder. [/quote]
Yes murder is murder, death is death, and abortion is abortion. If someone is not suitable to be a parent they should not have a child. 14 year old children should not be having kids, they should not be having sex. But if they do is it right to punish them and perhaps also potentially destroying the life of the child they have as they cannot raise it properly. Adoption agencies are overwhelmed with kids. Hell earth cannot support it's current population.
Damn BBC code seems to be broken...
It's a leaders duty to obey the people and do what is best for the majority of the people.
[quote] -Pro-life people often say that you shouldn't live under the rule of a despot unless you're willing to deal with the consequences. Well, genocide is a way of dealing with it. [/quote]
Abortion is not genocide, it is not the wiping out of a whole race.
[quote] -Don't like genocide? Move somewhere else. [/quote]
Go to china, the practice it quite often. Or Iraq, or any country where they let their religion dictate the killing of anyone who is not the same.
[quote] First off, the "Abortions are a way of dealing with it" for having sex and making a "mistake" is wrong in my eyes. If you can't deal with the consequences, don't have sex. Abortion results in the death of another human being. The next president, someone who creates a cure for aids, etc. Sure, it may be like the lottery, but what right does a person have to destroy another living human being. IMHO abortion is murder, but in some cases you have to look at the greater good. [/quote]
That is why contreception was created, sex with no procreation. Also a bunch of cells is not a human being. A human being is a human being.
[quote] A woman who has an abortion to avoid the consequences of sex is in the wrong IMHO. She has no right to take the life of another human being because of her recklessness, that's like drinking and driving. Drinking and having sex can cause death as well, as long as abortion is legal. Forgetting to use protection and then killing the child is not a very good way to deal with these issues. If there is no reason a woman cannot bear the child then abortion is not a viable option. There is always adoption, everyone deserves a chance at life. [/quote]
Ok drink-driving is bad, not question there. But there is nothing wrong with sex, also see my previous comments about it. Some people do not want to be parents, should they be stopped from having sex? No. Sex is for procreation yes, it is also very enjoyable, it has evolved that way.
[quote] Would it not be more logical to kill every person with a contagious possibly life threatening disease? Abortion is the killing of a human being that is not necessarily going to cause anyone any harm, and could cause much good. Where as say, a person with aids could potentially spread aids to myself, so should they not be killed so as to protect my body? I mean, its my choice because its my body right? They could endanger me, so I should remove them. [/quote]
It's not a case of the child causing harm, it is the case of the person perhaps not being suitable parent or not wanting to be. As for you wanting to get aids, well go ahead that is your body, that is your choice.
[quote] Now, in some cases the baby could cause complications, death, etc for the mother. In such cases I believe abortion is an option because there is a possibility of the mother and the child both dying. I see no reason to risk the deaths of 2 people when the death of the unborn baby ensures the mother's continuing health, but if the mother has no health risks associated, and nothing bad will come of it except a little weight loss and some stretch marks then why kill a human being? [/quote]
See my previous comments, ie unsuitable parent, or not wanting a child. 14 year old kids should not have kids. Ok they should not have sex either, but that is not the discussion here.
[quote] So for me to be "pro abortion" would mean that I would have to stand for killing anything that could potentially cause harm to myself, right? Abortion is not the answer for the "Well, it was a mistake" or the "I don't want it now" mothers, that's just wrong. You have no right to kill another human because of your mistake. Abortion is all about looking out for yourself with complete disregard for another human life that your, in your inifinite wisdom, made. The purpose of sex is procreation. There is no denying that sex was made to procreate. The goal of having sex is to achieve orgasm, and what happens at orgasm?? Exactly...so you can't deny that during the act you don't know what you're doing. If a person isn't mature enough to understand the consequences of having sex, they obviously shouldn't be having sex.[/quote]
Sex was not "made" it evolved. Yes it is for procreation, but once again it is enjoyable. But as for the maturity, I agree. But I have sex, I am not ready to be a parent. If the condom splits and Aoife gets pregnant, we may have an abortion as we are not ready to be parents yet. We may be mature enough to support the child, but that is beside the point.
[quote] So as for abortion, I believe it to be a selfish act. Should we not exterminate anyone who is not up to standards as well, perhaps cull the herd. I mean, since abortion is good for the mother, perhaps we should broaden our view from a selfish self centered one to one that is "good for the whole". We should remove all diseased people, all people who are unable to contribute to the greater good of humanity. Such would be abortion on a larger scale, instead of being a selfish act done by a woman who makes a mistake, a large scale removal of those who do not meet the standards of society would make up for "sexual" mistakes of society as a whole, such as spreading of STDs, mentally disabled, etc. [/quote]
You forcing others not to have abortions because you do not like them is just as selfish. And you are approaching nazism with your "culling the herd" comment.
[quote] The only difference between genocide and abortion is the number of human beings being slaughtered. If its a woman's body, is it not a leader's country? Was not hitler correct in his removal of all "inferior" humans, humans he considered a "mistake" and did not want? If a woman has the power to decide to kill another human being if its is inside her womb, should it not be the right of a leader to decide whether a person in his territory should die or not? Who's to say a despot's country is not as sacred to him as a woman's body is to her. It all comes down to how you look at it, what's more important...your desires, or the greater good of humanity. [/quote]
Genocide is the destruction of a race. Not abortion. Also a persons body is more their own concern then a leaders country. Once again perspective.
[quote] Note: I obviously disagree with "death" in general unless there is a very very good reason. Everyone has the right to life, and the choice to take that away is extremely selfish. I was just proving the point that death is death, no matter what excuse you use to cover up for murder its still murder. [/quote]
Yes murder is murder, death is death, and abortion is abortion. If someone is not suitable to be a parent they should not have a child. 14 year old children should not be having kids, they should not be having sex. But if they do is it right to punish them and perhaps also potentially destroying the life of the child they have as they cannot raise it properly. Adoption agencies are overwhelmed with kids. Hell earth cannot support it's current population.
Damn BBC code seems to be broken...
QUOTE
That is why contreception was created, sex with no procreation. Also a bunch of cells is not a human being. A human being is a human being.
See, and that's where our views differ I believe. Even though it may be a clump of cells, that clump of cells is a human being, or at least will pop out as a human being. The fact that it isn't fully grown doesn't matter to me, because the way I look at it an infant isn't fully grown either. It doesn't speak in coherent sentences, it doesn't produce anything, its not a productive member of society, therefore what would be the difference between them? Sure, most people don't consider that clump of cells a "sentient being" but the same can be said about animals, and its illegal to be cruel to an animal. Although I can live with most abortions, partial birth abortions are not something I can tolerate...that's just wrong.
Right, I have to agree that perhaps the children will have a rough life, and times will be hard... but its far better than death. Being given a chance at life is millions of times better than being killed without ever having the chance to see the light of day. I am not a religios person, but I do not see how any religious person could condone such an act. Abortion is a tough issue for me, because the only thing stopping me from being pro abortion is that I believe every person needs a chance at life. If I didn't believe that people who are brought up in the lowest conditions can become truly productive and contribute so much to the world I would probably be perfectly ok with abortion, but what it all boils down to for me is that I cannot accept the fact that because a woman was careless another human being will die for that mistake. That's what it really comes down to for me....you can't kill another person because you screwed up, its not right. Nobody should pay for your mistakes.
Most of my previous post was just me being appaled at the callousness of the "hey, I'm killing babies, whatever" attitude of the post. As if a woman's mistake causing the death of a person was perfectly ok, and that its ok to kill babies big deal, lets blow it off like it doesn't matter. If you don't like it don't do it...kinda like rape. "Hey, if you don't like it, don't do it. Hey, if you don't like it, don't be the victim".
I actually agree with you on partial birth abortions. I find them appaling. But an abortion within the first 2 months I do not have so much a problem with.
As for the whole "quality of life" arguement, well we will have to agree to disagree. As for the whole "hey I'm killing a baby who cares", I agree it is too callous. But most people consider quite a bit before taking the option of abortion. And once again I have to point out children should not become parents, I support abortion for all under 18 100%, as long as it is within the first two months, if it goes over that, and thus would be a partial birth, I am disgusted. In that case adoption would be a viable alternative.
As for the whole "quality of life" arguement, well we will have to agree to disagree. As for the whole "hey I'm killing a baby who cares", I agree it is too callous. But most people consider quite a bit before taking the option of abortion. And once again I have to point out children should not become parents, I support abortion for all under 18 100%, as long as it is within the first two months, if it goes over that, and thus would be a partial birth, I am disgusted. In that case adoption would be a viable alternative.
Partial birth abortions are only performed when the child has serious defects that will mean it has no chance of a life anyway. Most doctors don't perform them for 'convienience'.
LONDON (Reuters) - A Christmas campaign for an "immaculate contraception" morning-after birth control pill has been scrapped by a drug company in Britain after causing offence on religious grounds.
The poster, which appeared on London Underground trains, asked: "Immaculate contraception? If only."
"It might be Christmas time," it read, "but condoms still split and pills still get forgotten. So if your contraception lets you down, ask your pharmacist for Levonelle One Step."
Schering Health Care, a subsidiary of Schering AG of Germany, said in a statement it had decided to withdraw the "inappropriate" advert after receiving several letters.
"We take this step as a responsible manufacturer in recognition of the religious concerns expressed to us," it said. "This advertisement was intended as a play on words to indicate that there is no such thing as immaculate contraception."
The poster also prompted 109 complaints to Britain's Advertising Standards Authority (ASA), which has launched a formal investigation into the advert.
An ASA spokeswoman said most of the complaints, including one from the National Association of Catholic Families, related to religion.
Others found the advert irresponsible because they felt it encouraged casual sex and trivialized unwanted pregnancies.
The poster, which appeared on London Underground trains, asked: "Immaculate contraception? If only."
"It might be Christmas time," it read, "but condoms still split and pills still get forgotten. So if your contraception lets you down, ask your pharmacist for Levonelle One Step."
Schering Health Care, a subsidiary of Schering AG of Germany, said in a statement it had decided to withdraw the "inappropriate" advert after receiving several letters.
"We take this step as a responsible manufacturer in recognition of the religious concerns expressed to us," it said. "This advertisement was intended as a play on words to indicate that there is no such thing as immaculate contraception."
The poster also prompted 109 complaints to Britain's Advertising Standards Authority (ASA), which has launched a formal investigation into the advert.
An ASA spokeswoman said most of the complaints, including one from the National Association of Catholic Families, related to religion.
Others found the advert irresponsible because they felt it encouraged casual sex and trivialized unwanted pregnancies.
Ok, so incase the condom splits and you aren't on the pill you now have to risk an unwanted pregnancy because some religion which you quite possibly have no beliefs in is offended by an advertisement?
Oh come off it. Those religious zealots should learn to stay the hell away from everyone else. We don't want their preaching, or their so called morals. We live our own lives, let them live theirs.
Oh come off it. Those religious zealots should learn to stay the hell away from everyone else. We don't want their preaching, or their so called morals. We live our own lives, let them live theirs.
Grrr. Like the pharmicist who refused to let a woman purchase the morning-after pill on the basis that he was Catholic and that he thought the morning-after pill should only be given to married couples or something.
What a bleeping bleep.
What a bleeping bleep.
Fucking moron is all I can class that pharmacist
QUOTE (Amon @ Nov 17 2004, 11:36 AM)
QUOTE
That is why contreception was created, sex with no procreation. Also a bunch of cells is not a human being. A human being is a human being.
See, and that's where our views differ I believe. Even though it may be a clump of cells, that clump of cells is a human being, or at least will pop out as a human being. The fact that it isn't fully grown doesn't matter to me, because the way I look at it an infant isn't fully grown either. It doesn't speak in coherent sentences, it doesn't produce anything, its not a productive member of society, therefore what would be the difference between them? Sure, most people don't consider that clump of cells a "sentient being" but the same can be said about animals, and its illegal to be cruel to an animal. Although I can live with most abortions, partial birth abortions are not something I can tolerate...that's just wrong.
Right, I have to agree that perhaps the children will have a rough life, and times will be hard... but its far better than death. Being given a chance at life is millions of times better than being killed without ever having the chance to see the light of day. I am not a religios person, but I do not see how any religious person could condone such an act. Abortion is a tough issue for me, because the only thing stopping me from being pro abortion is that I believe every person needs a chance at life. If I didn't believe that people who are brought up in the lowest conditions can become truly productive and contribute so much to the world I would probably be perfectly ok with abortion, but what it all boils down to for me is that I cannot accept the fact that because a woman was careless another human being will die for that mistake. That's what it really comes down to for me....you can't kill another person because you screwed up, its not right. Nobody should pay for your mistakes.
I agree with you. yeah, the first 2 weeks maybe the baby is basically a clump of cells but what is everyone made of? cells. so in a way we're all just a clump of cells...
and I hate how some people don't consider the baby "a baby" if it's still inside the fetus. if a baby was born right now, what was it 5 minutes ago? hey, it was still a "fetus", so it must not have been a person...
QUOTE (cutie_pie_8989 @ Dec 9 2004, 10:35 PM)
I agree with you. yeah, the first 2 weeks maybe the baby is basically a clump of cells but what is everyone made of? cells. so in a way we're all just a clump of cells...
What are corpses? Clumps of cells with their battery (that 5g mysteriously disappearing mass you call a soul) taken out by something (like the car that just ran into one). I wish to point out we have a structure over the clump, and a life over the corpses.
QUOTE
and I hate how some people don't consider the baby "a baby" if it's still inside the fetus. if a baby was born right now, what was it 5 minutes ago? hey, it was still a "fetus", so it must not have been a person...
Technically, you could say it is. It's not exactly breathing, for a start.
Abortion is wrong. Plain and simple. It's murder any way you look at it. You're killing a human life, alive or unborn. Plus, if you can't take care of it, adoption a HELLUVA lot cheaper than an abortion.
But, my point is, I'm against abortion.
Everyone has the right to live.
But, my point is, I'm against abortion.
Everyone has the right to live.
Cheaper for whom? Better for whom? "You are killing a human life, alive or unborn"? If it is not alive, how is it a life? Therefore, how it is murder?
Besides, since when did anyone adopt? People go out of their way for their own flesh and blood. Littering the Earth with life just lowers the chance of living people continuing to live, we will eventually run out of space. Skyscrapers can only go so high before they become structurally unsound, or otherwise unfit for use (there's little air up there too)
Besides, since when did anyone adopt? People go out of their way for their own flesh and blood. Littering the Earth with life just lowers the chance of living people continuing to live, we will eventually run out of space. Skyscrapers can only go so high before they become structurally unsound, or otherwise unfit for use (there's little air up there too)
QUOTE (Mas Tnega @ Dec 9 2004, 06:49 PM)
QUOTE (cutie_pie_8989 @ Dec 9 2004, 10:35 PM)
I agree with you. yeah, the first 2 weeks maybe the baby is basically a clump of cells but what is everyone made of? cells. so in a way we're all just a clump of cells...
What are corpses? Clumps of cells with their battery (that 5g mysteriously disappearing mass you call a soul) taken out by something (like the car that just ran into one). I wish to point out we have a structure over the clump, and a life over the corpses.
so once the baby in the fetus forms a structure, which doesn't take very long, they are humans.
QUOTE (Mas Tnega)
QUOTE (cutie_pie_8989)
and I hate how some people don't consider the baby "a baby" if it's still inside the fetus. if a baby was born right now, what was it 5 minutes ago? hey, it was still a "fetus", so it must not have been a person...
Technically, you could say it is. It's not exactly breathing, for a start. yes technically it is a "fetus" because it is in and attatched to the mother. but it should still be considered a person. soon enough it has a head, a brain, legs, arms, lungs, a heart.... is that not a person? and it is breathing (I don't know how old the baby is when it starts but it would die if it couldn't breathe. because it's a person.)
QUOTE (cutie_pie_8989 @ Dec 11 2004, 12:18 AM)
so once the baby in the fetus forms a structure, which doesn't take very long, they are humans.
That's pretty much my understanding of the first trimester thing.QUOTE
and it is breathing (I don't know how old the baby is when it starts but it would die if it couldn't breathe. because it's a person.)
It's not breathing in there. Oxygen is fed to it by the mother through the umbilical cord. It is in all possible senses a parasite.
I agree that at first when the zygote is made it isn't a person right then. but like I said:
and you can say it is "breathing", just not independently. if the oxygen is cut off it will die.
QUOTE
soon enough it has a head, a brain, legs, arms, lungs, a heart... is that not a person?
and you can say it is "breathing", just not independently. if the oxygen is cut off it will die.
This arguement is starting to go in circles people. Come up with some new points pro-lifers and pro-choicers.
But there's only so much to argue... and it all leads back to the same things.
Well then perhaps the arguement is closed?
Pro-lifers don't want ANYONE to have abortions. But should they have the right to tell others what to do when perhaps the child is unwanted, or perhaps is being had by another child?
Pro-choicers want people to choose for themselves, and let them work out what to do in each individual case.
In the end this debate will never really finish.
Pro-lifers don't want ANYONE to have abortions. But should they have the right to tell others what to do when perhaps the child is unwanted, or perhaps is being had by another child?
Pro-choicers want people to choose for themselves, and let them work out what to do in each individual case.
In the end this debate will never really finish.
Just allow it, not everyone in the world is a pro-lifer, so pro-lifer beliefs should not have to apply to everyone. Admittedly, this does mean pro-choice applies to all, but we know what pro-lifers are going to choose anyway. Pro-lifers have already made their choice, and wish for the rest to either have no choice, or choose the same thing.
abortion is a tough subject for me because I'm pro-life because I don't want the babies to be killed, but I'm pro-choice, because the government shouldn't be able to decide what a woman does with her babies. there should still be regulations though, because some people will just get an abortion every time they get pregnant just because they're too irresponsible to have safe sex.
Bush (whom I do not like) agrees with abortion in cases of rape, incest, and if there is something seriously wrong with the baby. Which I agree with but it kinda annoys me because he’s never been pregnant with an unwanted baby (either have I though.)
I guess to sum it up, I think women should be allowed to get an abortion under those circumstances, and if those things do not apply, but there should be a limit to how many time you can get one. I know that some women will abuse the right to get an abortion and there won’t be much anyone can do about it if there aren’t limits.
Bush (whom I do not like) agrees with abortion in cases of rape, incest, and if there is something seriously wrong with the baby. Which I agree with but it kinda annoys me because he’s never been pregnant with an unwanted baby (either have I though.)
I guess to sum it up, I think women should be allowed to get an abortion under those circumstances, and if those things do not apply, but there should be a limit to how many time you can get one. I know that some women will abuse the right to get an abortion and there won’t be much anyone can do about it if there aren’t limits.
Hmm, a limit if it is just in case of being stupid and not using contreception. That actually could work.
There's hardly any such thing as health insurance or anything like that, they could just be whores and make abortions fairly expensive. The pill and condoms will suddenly become popular, or sex won't.
QUOTE (Mas Tnega @ Dec 13 2004, 09:08 AM)
There's hardly any such thing as health insurance or anything like that, they could just be whores and make abortions fairly expensive. The pill and condoms will suddenly become popular, or sex won't.
that's a good idea. unless one of the circumstances I posted above applies. that's what I think anyway.
Well they could just do it that they keep track, and each subsequent abortion doubles in price, that should curb it over all. Once is a mistake, twice is happenstance, thrice you need to use a condom or stop having sex.
That sounds familiar except I know it as "Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action"
Or once, shame on you. Twice, shame on me. Thrice, you're both bloody morons.
heheheh they all work 
QUOTE (Mas Tnega @ Dec 10 2004, 07:11 AM)
Cheaper for whom? Better for whom? "You are killing a human life, alive or unborn"? If it is not alive, how is it a life? Therefore, how it is murder?
Besides, since when did anyone adopt? People go out of their way for their own flesh and blood. Littering the Earth with life just lowers the chance of living people continuing to live, we will eventually run out of space. Skyscrapers can only go so high before they become structurally unsound, or otherwise unfit for use (there's little air up there too)
Besides, since when did anyone adopt? People go out of their way for their own flesh and blood. Littering the Earth with life just lowers the chance of living people continuing to live, we will eventually run out of space. Skyscrapers can only go so high before they become structurally unsound, or otherwise unfit for use (there's little air up there too)
I understand what your saying here, but
Your saying abortion is good because it keeps the population low..well..
why find cures for cancer?..heck lets let all the children in africa suffer from aids(not like they already arent anyways)..so we can have more room for us to move about. I dont know it jst doesnt seem right to me.
You can say well theres a diff. between a fetus or an actually person but many people dont view it as that, i think as soon as u create it, its a baby.
and i think partial birth abortions are disgusting, and should be banned.
QUOTE (Robb @ Dec 14 2004, 06:59 AM)
Or once, shame on you. Twice, shame on me. Thrice, you're both bloody morons.
You got it wrong... I always thought it along the lines of that old Texas saying. "Fool me once... shame on you... you can't fool me a second time."
But abortion. I had originally thought of it as a horrible act. Why? Mainly because of my religion. But then I realized religion is not a viable support system because there are so many different forms. I then started seeing the uses of abortion to aid the women who became pregnant due to molestation or rape... but then it suddenly struck me - I hate all these 16 year old mothers in high schools around the country who have to drop out because they're pregnant. Population control?
That phrase was old before Texas was colonized by the Europeans, that is a Texan twist on it.
And yes, abortion is population control. In all honesty, no 16 year old is mature enough to be a parent. Hell they cannot support themselves. Until you can support yourself easily you are not ready to be a parent.
And yes, abortion is population control. In all honesty, no 16 year old is mature enough to be a parent. Hell they cannot support themselves. Until you can support yourself easily you are not ready to be a parent.
QUOTE (cutie_pie_8989 @ Dec 12 2004, 02:38 PM)
abortion is a tough subject for me because I'm pro-life because I don't want the babies to be killed, but I'm pro-choice, because the government shouldn't be able to decide what a woman does with her babies. there should still be regulations though, because some people will just get an abortion every time they get pregnant just because they're too irresponsible to have safe sex.
Bush (whom I do not like) agrees with abortion in cases of rape, incest, and if there is something seriously wrong with the baby. Which I agree with but it kinda annoys me because he’s never been pregnant with an unwanted baby (either have I though.)
I guess to sum it up, I think women should be allowed to get an abortion under those circumstances, and if those things do not apply, but there should be a limit to how many time you can get one. I know that some women will abuse the right to get an abortion and there won’t be much anyone can do about it if there aren’t limits.
Bush (whom I do not like) agrees with abortion in cases of rape, incest, and if there is something seriously wrong with the baby. Which I agree with but it kinda annoys me because he’s never been pregnant with an unwanted baby (either have I though.)
I guess to sum it up, I think women should be allowed to get an abortion under those circumstances, and if those things do not apply, but there should be a limit to how many time you can get one. I know that some women will abuse the right to get an abortion and there won’t be much anyone can do about it if there aren’t limits.
I agree with you on this one. I'm pro-life, but pro-choice because of the reason you stated. I don't like the fact that someone can just get rid of a child because they don't like it, but still, a woman should have a choice in what goes on in her body.
I believe there isn't a limit, but rather one on how many abortions a woman can take. I think after too many you can't have children anymore, as it messes up your uterus. I'm not sure really, I remember hearing it somewhere.
QUOTE (juldizzle33 @ Dec 23 2004, 02:58 AM)
I understand what your saying here, but
Your saying abortion is good because it keeps the population low..well..
Not quite, I'm saying either way it's a waste of a life, one somewhat more metaphorical than the other, but real enough. Your saying abortion is good because it keeps the population low..well..
QUOTE
why find cures for cancer?..heck lets let all the children in africa suffer from aids(not like they already arent anyways)..so we can have more room for us to move about. I dont know it jst doesnt seem right to me.
Actually, if you ban abortion, you'll have less time for these people, less space for them. In general, there will be less for them. QUOTE
You can say well theres a diff. between a fetus or an actually person but many people dont view it as that, i think as soon as u create it, its a baby.
So? That's their opinion, and they can keep it for their own cases of pregnancy. Doesn't mean everyone else has to. QUOTE
and i think partial birth abortions are disgusting, and should be banned.
Even in cases where it is a neccessity?
QUOTE (GamerGirl488 @ Dec 23 2004, 11:21 AM)
I believe there isn't a limit, but rather one on how many abortions a woman can take. I think after too many you can't have children anymore, as it messes up your uterus. I'm not sure really, I remember hearing it somewhere.
Yeah after x amount of abortions it can't be doing your body any good...
QUOTE (I babygirl I @ Sep 26 2004, 06:36 PM)
Yay! I have been waiting forever for this kind of post, I would of did it just didn't know if I could. I think I have put my option on this subject before I will do it again.!
Okay now, Let’s take a look at the definitions of murder and abortion.
Murder-
The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
Abortion-
Termination of pregnancy and expulsion of an embryo or of a fetus.
These two definitions may sound different, but as you read into them, they begin to show signs of similarities.
Let’s take a look at the differences first of all.
1. Murder is unlawful, and abortion is lawful.
2. Murder is outside of the womb, Abortion is inside of the womb.
Now let us look at the similarities
1. They both involve killing another human being.
2. They are both premeditated.
Looking at the differences, my goal is to change number one, and number two, it shouldn’t matter where anyone is! If I lived in a hole, would it matter if someone killed me there instead of at an office building? No! It isn’t any different here.
Now let us look at the similarities. They both involve killing another human being! Some would say that the embryo isn’t a human being yet. I don’t buy it. It breathes and thinks. That is good enough for me. Also, the abortion is completely premeditated. They plan out the abortion very clearly down to the minute it will happen.
After looking at those facts, I believe that abortion is murder after you break it down.
Now let’s look at the less judicial part of it. The ethics.
Some teenagers may say, “I can’t handle the responsibility or it wasn’t my fault.”
To that, I say bull! First of all, you shouldn’t having been having sex out of wedlock, second of all, if you are, take birth control. Do not ruin a young baby's life just because you are selfish!
Second of all, the lawmakers say that it reduces the population. Put the babies up for adoption! Put them with a loving family! Don't be a vampire and steal their life, be a life giver!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
*NOTE*: THIS IS NOT FOR THE WEAK AT STOMACH :*NOTE*
Just read...
Dear Mommy, I am in Heaven now, sitting on Jesus' lap. He loves me and cries with me; for my heart has been broken. I so wanted to be your little girl. I don't quite understand what has happened. I was so excited when I began realizing my existance. I was in a dark, yet comfortable place. I saw I had fingers and toes. I was pretty far along in my developing, yet not near ready to leave my surroundings. I spent most of my time thinking or sleeping. Even from my earliest days, I felt a special bonding between you and me. Sometimes I heard you crying and I cried with you. Sometimes you would yell or scream, then cry. I heard Daddy yelling back. I was sad, and hoped you would be better soon. I wondered why you cried so much. One day you cried almost all of the day. I hurt for you. I couldn't imagine why you were so unhappy. That same day, the most horrible thing happened. A very mean monster came into that warm, comfortable place I was in. I was so scared, I began screaming, but you never once tried to help me. Maybe you never heard me. The monster got closer and closer as I was screaming and screaming, "Mommy, Mommy, help me please; Mommy, help me." Complete terror is all I felt. I screamed and screamed until I thought I couldn't anymore. Then the monster started ripping my arms off. It hurt so bad; the pain I can never explain. It didn't stop. Oh, how I begged it to stop. I screamed in horror as it ripped my leg off. Though I was in such complete pain, I was dying. I knew I would never see your face or hear you say how much you love me. I wanted to make all your tears go away. I had so many plans to make you happy. Now I couldn't; all my dreams were shattered. Though I was in utter pain and horror, I felt the pain of my heart breaking, above all. I wanted more than anything to be your daughter. No use now, for I was dying a painful death. I could only imagine the terrible things that they had done to you. I wanted to tell you that I love you before I was gone, but I didn't know the words you could understand. And soon, I no longer had the breath to say them; I was dead.I felt myself rising. I was being carried by a huge angel into a big beautiful place. I was still crying, but the physical pain was gone. The angel took me to Jesus and set me on His lap. He said He loved me, and He was my Father. Then I was happy. I asked Him what the thing was that killed me. He answered, "Abortion. I am sorry, my child; for I know how it feels." I don't know what abortion is; I guess that's the name of the monster. I'm writing to say that I love you and to tell you how much I wanted to be your little girl. I tried very hard to live. I wanted to live. I had the will, but I couldn't; the monster was too powerful. It sucked my arms and legs off and finally got all of me. It was impossible to live. I just wanted you to know I tried to stay with you. I didn't want to die. Also, Mommy, please watch out for that abortion monster. Mommy, I love you and I would hate for you to go through the kind of pain I did. Please be careful.
Love,
Your Baby Girl
Okay now, Let’s take a look at the definitions of murder and abortion.
Murder-
The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
Abortion-
Termination of pregnancy and expulsion of an embryo or of a fetus.
These two definitions may sound different, but as you read into them, they begin to show signs of similarities.
Let’s take a look at the differences first of all.
1. Murder is unlawful, and abortion is lawful.
2. Murder is outside of the womb, Abortion is inside of the womb.
Now let us look at the similarities
1. They both involve killing another human being.
2. They are both premeditated.
Looking at the differences, my goal is to change number one, and number two, it shouldn’t matter where anyone is! If I lived in a hole, would it matter if someone killed me there instead of at an office building? No! It isn’t any different here.
Now let us look at the similarities. They both involve killing another human being! Some would say that the embryo isn’t a human being yet. I don’t buy it. It breathes and thinks. That is good enough for me. Also, the abortion is completely premeditated. They plan out the abortion very clearly down to the minute it will happen.
After looking at those facts, I believe that abortion is murder after you break it down.
Now let’s look at the less judicial part of it. The ethics.
Some teenagers may say, “I can’t handle the responsibility or it wasn’t my fault.”
To that, I say bull! First of all, you shouldn’t having been having sex out of wedlock, second of all, if you are, take birth control. Do not ruin a young baby's life just because you are selfish!
Second of all, the lawmakers say that it reduces the population. Put the babies up for adoption! Put them with a loving family! Don't be a vampire and steal their life, be a life giver!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
*NOTE*: THIS IS NOT FOR THE WEAK AT STOMACH :*NOTE*
Just read...
Dear Mommy, I am in Heaven now, sitting on Jesus' lap. He loves me and cries with me; for my heart has been broken. I so wanted to be your little girl. I don't quite understand what has happened. I was so excited when I began realizing my existance. I was in a dark, yet comfortable place. I saw I had fingers and toes. I was pretty far along in my developing, yet not near ready to leave my surroundings. I spent most of my time thinking or sleeping. Even from my earliest days, I felt a special bonding between you and me. Sometimes I heard you crying and I cried with you. Sometimes you would yell or scream, then cry. I heard Daddy yelling back. I was sad, and hoped you would be better soon. I wondered why you cried so much. One day you cried almost all of the day. I hurt for you. I couldn't imagine why you were so unhappy. That same day, the most horrible thing happened. A very mean monster came into that warm, comfortable place I was in. I was so scared, I began screaming, but you never once tried to help me. Maybe you never heard me. The monster got closer and closer as I was screaming and screaming, "Mommy, Mommy, help me please; Mommy, help me." Complete terror is all I felt. I screamed and screamed until I thought I couldn't anymore. Then the monster started ripping my arms off. It hurt so bad; the pain I can never explain. It didn't stop. Oh, how I begged it to stop. I screamed in horror as it ripped my leg off. Though I was in such complete pain, I was dying. I knew I would never see your face or hear you say how much you love me. I wanted to make all your tears go away. I had so many plans to make you happy. Now I couldn't; all my dreams were shattered. Though I was in utter pain and horror, I felt the pain of my heart breaking, above all. I wanted more than anything to be your daughter. No use now, for I was dying a painful death. I could only imagine the terrible things that they had done to you. I wanted to tell you that I love you before I was gone, but I didn't know the words you could understand. And soon, I no longer had the breath to say them; I was dead.I felt myself rising. I was being carried by a huge angel into a big beautiful place. I was still crying, but the physical pain was gone. The angel took me to Jesus and set me on His lap. He said He loved me, and He was my Father. Then I was happy. I asked Him what the thing was that killed me. He answered, "Abortion. I am sorry, my child; for I know how it feels." I don't know what abortion is; I guess that's the name of the monster. I'm writing to say that I love you and to tell you how much I wanted to be your little girl. I tried very hard to live. I wanted to live. I had the will, but I couldn't; the monster was too powerful. It sucked my arms and legs off and finally got all of me. It was impossible to live. I just wanted you to know I tried to stay with you. I didn't want to die. Also, Mommy, please watch out for that abortion monster. Mommy, I love you and I would hate for you to go through the kind of pain I did. Please be careful.
Love,
Your Baby Girl
You forgot to take one small thing into account: When is the fetus considered "human"? Just because something has the capacity to feel pain does that make it human? A dog, a cat, a goddamn WORM can feel pain yet it is not considered human. We kill "non humans" all the time, and in much worse ways that an abortion.
If it can be scientifically proven that a 2 month old fetus is truly human by definition - and for this to occur a definition of humanity and what constitutes as human must first be reached - and capable of all the emotions/understanding/higher functions of a human being, then and only then would I be anti abortion.
QUOTE
You can say well theres a diff. between a fetus or an actually person but many people dont view it as that, i think as soon as u create it, its a baby.
Are you aware that about 80-90% of the world's population have the average intelligence of a thirteen year old and the emotional intelligence of an eight year old?
Sometimes I question democracy for the sole fact that: THE MASSES ARE ASSES.
The majority of people are blithering idiots. Not because they are not capable of higher learning, no, but because they are lazy slobs with no interest in intellectual persuits. They'd rather watch American Idol.
Just a thought...
So at one point in our lives were not actually human?
So at one point in our lives were not actually human?
When you are only a ball of about 100 cells and have no clearly defined cells as any organ or limbs. At least that is what I would class it. Anytime after the second month, 8 weeks, you are a recognisable.
QUOTE (BluNWiteTitanGrlie @ Dec 27 2004, 04:15 PM)
Just a thought...
So at one point in our lives were not actually human?
So at one point in our lives were not actually human?
First you have to define what it means to be human compared to what it means to be alive.
And defining the word is alot harder than simply looking in the dictionary.
For instance, we distinguish ourselves from every other living being on the planet.
We are different, we are special. Or so we like to believe.
We like to think that we are different because of our ethics, our morals, our emotions, our consience, and that little indescribable thing we call the "soul".
We justify the slaughter and abuse of other creatures because we are somehow better.
The life of an ant or a shark or a fxcking dafodil means nothing.
But the second one of us is harmed we cry anathoma.
Did you know that trees scream? Because they do.
If we can define how and why we are different, and for some reason more deserving than other life, and when we become human by these standards, maybe then we should make abortion illegal if a two week old fetus can be proven to feel pain, emotions, etc, etc, etc.
And this is just how I feel, I'm not saying I'm right or wrong.
And for the record, abortions have been going on for centuaries.
They only became seriously frowned upon when the witch trials began in eaurop.
Why? Because The Church (i.e. men) decided that midwives were witches because a. They eased the pain of childbirth, which is a big NO NO considering that Eve's punishment was to feel the pain of childbirth.
b. They did not like the idea of a woman having control over her own body.
c. They sought to make medicine a strictly male profession.
Again, my opinion, but there is alot of evidence to back up that patriarchal mysoginistic paradigm.
Yeah.
Well said hey_coffee_eyes.
A lot of ppl dont know how abortions are done, so i typed this up from a book. I dont know if anyone esle posted anything on how its done, so here it is.
Killing the Unborn Child-
Since 1973 the year that the U.S Supreme Court overturned sate laws prohibiting abortion , over 30 million unborn children have been kidded in the united startes alone-more then one aboritong for every 3 live births. World wide, it is estimated that between 1 and 1.5 billion abortions have been performed since 1970, and abortions continue at a rate of between 30-60 MILLION per year. Many people who support abortion do not even know what it is. Since it is such a vital issue today, responsible citizens must understand it. Several methods of abortion are commonly used today. Over 90% of the surgical. Abortions done in the united states employ the,
Suction method: (also known as suction curettage)/B], used during the first 3 months of the childs development. In this method a tube is connected to a suction device is inserted into the mothers womb. The forch created by this device tears the childs body apart and draws the pieces into the tube and into a container for disposal. Early-term abortions can also be carried out using drugs that kills the developing child and induce miscarriage. About 3% if the abortions in the united states involve the [B]Dilation and curettage (D&C) method , also used in the first three months of development. This method involves using a loop-shaped knife called a curette to scrape the womb, serving the childs attachment to the mother. The babys body is often cut into small pieced, and the head may be crushed to fit through the opening of the womb. (both suctions curettage and D&C can also be used for purposes other then abortion.) During the period between 13 and 20 weeks (3 and 5 months) of development, the most common method of abortion is the Dilation and evacuation (D&E) method. In this method, a pair of forceps is inserted into the mother womb, where they are used to dismember the child and drag the parts out of the womb through the birth canal. The tiny parts are often reassembled to ensure that none of the Childs remains are left in the womb. After 20 weeks, D&E is not longer practical, so abortionists occasionally use salt poisoning (saline abortion) to kill the child during this period. Using a long needle, they inject a salt solution (or something urea) into the amniotic sac. This concentrated salt solution is swallowed and inhaled by the child, causing hemorraging, shock, and often painful burning of the skin. The child thrashes about as it slowly dies, usually within an hour and a half. The dead child is then delivered though the birth canal within 2-3 days. Although most abortions are performed during the first three months of pregnancy, 10,000-15,000 per year are performed during the final three months of development, when the baby is capable of surviving outside the womb. When the child is so far advanced, Hysterotomy abortions are usually performed. In the procedure, witch is similar to a Caesarean section, the child is surgically removed from the womb, but is laid aside to die from neglect; a medical team would work around the clock to save this same child if he or she were born prematurely and wanted .Alternatively, the exposed child is killed while still in the womb then removed after he is dead. Some mid- and late- term abortions (after the 20th week) are also performed usiong the intact dilation and extraction (D&X) method or partial-birth abortion. In this method of abortion, the child is delivered alive though the birth canal just as in a normal live birth, except that he is delivered feet first. When all of his body except his head is outside the mother, the child Is then killed by a puncturuing the base of the skull and using suction to remove his brain, collapsing the skull so that the head can fit more conveniently through the opening of the birth canal. Learning what abortion is and how it is performed has caused many people to feel that is should again be abolished by civilized nations.
anyone after reading that still say abortion is not murder and they should have a "choice"???? anyone???
Killing the Unborn Child-
Since 1973 the year that the U.S Supreme Court overturned sate laws prohibiting abortion , over 30 million unborn children have been kidded in the united startes alone-more then one aboritong for every 3 live births. World wide, it is estimated that between 1 and 1.5 billion abortions have been performed since 1970, and abortions continue at a rate of between 30-60 MILLION per year. Many people who support abortion do not even know what it is. Since it is such a vital issue today, responsible citizens must understand it. Several methods of abortion are commonly used today. Over 90% of the surgical. Abortions done in the united states employ the,
Suction method: (also known as suction curettage)/B], used during the first 3 months of the childs development. In this method a tube is connected to a suction device is inserted into the mothers womb. The forch created by this device tears the childs body apart and draws the pieces into the tube and into a container for disposal. Early-term abortions can also be carried out using drugs that kills the developing child and induce miscarriage. About 3% if the abortions in the united states involve the [B]Dilation and curettage (D&C) method , also used in the first three months of development. This method involves using a loop-shaped knife called a curette to scrape the womb, serving the childs attachment to the mother. The babys body is often cut into small pieced, and the head may be crushed to fit through the opening of the womb. (both suctions curettage and D&C can also be used for purposes other then abortion.) During the period between 13 and 20 weeks (3 and 5 months) of development, the most common method of abortion is the Dilation and evacuation (D&E) method. In this method, a pair of forceps is inserted into the mother womb, where they are used to dismember the child and drag the parts out of the womb through the birth canal. The tiny parts are often reassembled to ensure that none of the Childs remains are left in the womb. After 20 weeks, D&E is not longer practical, so abortionists occasionally use salt poisoning (saline abortion) to kill the child during this period. Using a long needle, they inject a salt solution (or something urea) into the amniotic sac. This concentrated salt solution is swallowed and inhaled by the child, causing hemorraging, shock, and often painful burning of the skin. The child thrashes about as it slowly dies, usually within an hour and a half. The dead child is then delivered though the birth canal within 2-3 days. Although most abortions are performed during the first three months of pregnancy, 10,000-15,000 per year are performed during the final three months of development, when the baby is capable of surviving outside the womb. When the child is so far advanced, Hysterotomy abortions are usually performed. In the procedure, witch is similar to a Caesarean section, the child is surgically removed from the womb, but is laid aside to die from neglect; a medical team would work around the clock to save this same child if he or she were born prematurely and wanted .Alternatively, the exposed child is killed while still in the womb then removed after he is dead. Some mid- and late- term abortions (after the 20th week) are also performed usiong the intact dilation and extraction (D&X) method or partial-birth abortion. In this method of abortion, the child is delivered alive though the birth canal just as in a normal live birth, except that he is delivered feet first. When all of his body except his head is outside the mother, the child Is then killed by a puncturuing the base of the skull and using suction to remove his brain, collapsing the skull so that the head can fit more conveniently through the opening of the birth canal. Learning what abortion is and how it is performed has caused many people to feel that is should again be abolished by civilized nations.
anyone after reading that still say abortion is not murder and they should have a "choice"???? anyone???
And I am still pro choice on the grounds that Hysterotomy abortions, and (D&X) method or partial-birth abortion are rarley done and the fact that most abortion clinics will even allow them. That artical was written by some one who is against abortion adding a biased view to it. The keep saying kill the child. When in fact they are killing the fetus. All but the last 2 abortion methods are done to the fetus before it is technically an actuall person.
QUOTE (PyroslasherX @ Jan 18 2005, 01:09 PM)
And I am still pro choice on the grounds that Hysterotomy abortions, and (D&X) method or partial-birth abortion are rarley done and the fact that most abortion clinics will even allow them. That artical was written by some one who is against abortion adding a biased view to it. The keep saying kill the child. When in fact they are killing the fetus. All but the last 2 abortion methods are done to the fetus before it is technically an actuall person.
you can believe w/e u want, but as soon as the baby is conceived, its a child, a lot of doctors don't tell u that. And yes thos 2 methods are rarely done compared to the other methods, but there still done. And they do kill 10,000 to 15,000 babys a year.
QUOTE (Nysfinelilangel @ Jan 18 2005, 12:22 PM)
A lot of ppl dont know how abortions are done, so i typed this up from a book. I dont know if anyone esle posted anything on how its done, so here it is.
Killing the Unborn Child-
Since 1973 the year that the U.S Supreme Court overturned sate laws prohibiting abortion , over 30 million unborn children have been kidded in the united startes alone-more then one aboritong for every 3 live births. World wide, it is estimated that between 1 and 1.5 billion abortions have been performed since 1970, and abortions continue at a rate of between 30-60 MILLION per year. Many people who support abortion do not even know what it is. Since it is such a vital issue today, responsible citizens must understand it. Several methods of abortion are commonly used today. Over 90% of the surgical. Abortions done in the united states employ the,
Suction method: (also known as suction curettage)/B], used during the first 3 months of the childs development. In this method a tube is connected to a suction device is inserted into the mothers womb. The forch created by this device tears the childs body apart and draws the pieces into the tube and into a container for disposal. Early-term abortions can also be carried out using drugs that kills the developing child and induce miscarriage. About 3% if the abortions in the united states involve the [B]Dilation and curettage (D&C) method , also used in the first three months of development. This method involves using a loop-shaped knife called a curette to scrape the womb, serving the childs attachment to the mother. The babys body is often cut into small pieced, and the head may be crushed to fit through the opening of the womb. (both suctions curettage and D&C can also be used for purposes other then abortion.) During the period between 13 and 20 weeks (3 and 5 months) of development, the most common method of abortion is the Dilation and evacuation (D&E) method. In this method, a pair of forceps is inserted into the mother womb, where they are used to dismember the child and drag the parts out of the womb through the birth canal. The tiny parts are often reassembled to ensure that none of the Childs remains are left in the womb. After 20 weeks, D&E is not longer practical, so abortionists occasionally use salt poisoning (saline abortion) to kill the child during this period. Using a long needle, they inject a salt solution (or something urea) into the amniotic sac. This concentrated salt solution is swallowed and inhaled by the child, causing hemorraging, shock, and often painful burning of the skin. The child thrashes about as it slowly dies, usually within an hour and a half. The dead child is then delivered though the birth canal within 2-3 days. Although most abortions are performed during the first three months of pregnancy, 10,000-15,000 per year are performed during the final three months of development, when the baby is capable of surviving outside the womb. When the child is so far advanced, Hysterotomy abortions are usually performed. In the procedure, witch is similar to a Caesarean section, the child is surgically removed from the womb, but is laid aside to die from neglect; a medical team would work around the clock to save this same child if he or she were born prematurely and wanted .Alternatively, the exposed child is killed while still in the womb then removed after he is dead. Some mid- and late- term abortions (after the 20th week) are also performed usiong the intact dilation and extraction (D&X) method or partial-birth abortion. In this method of abortion, the child is delivered alive though the birth canal just as in a normal live birth, except that he is delivered feet first. When all of his body except his head is outside the mother, the child Is then killed by a puncturuing the base of the skull and using suction to remove his brain, collapsing the skull so that the head can fit more conveniently through the opening of the birth canal. Learning what abortion is and how it is performed has caused many people to feel that is should again be abolished by civilized nations.
anyone after reading that still say abortion is not murder and they should have a "choice"???? anyone???
Killing the Unborn Child-
Since 1973 the year that the U.S Supreme Court overturned sate laws prohibiting abortion , over 30 million unborn children have been kidded in the united startes alone-more then one aboritong for every 3 live births. World wide, it is estimated that between 1 and 1.5 billion abortions have been performed since 1970, and abortions continue at a rate of between 30-60 MILLION per year. Many people who support abortion do not even know what it is. Since it is such a vital issue today, responsible citizens must understand it. Several methods of abortion are commonly used today. Over 90% of the surgical. Abortions done in the united states employ the,
Suction method: (also known as suction curettage)/B], used during the first 3 months of the childs development. In this method a tube is connected to a suction device is inserted into the mothers womb. The forch created by this device tears the childs body apart and draws the pieces into the tube and into a container for disposal. Early-term abortions can also be carried out using drugs that kills the developing child and induce miscarriage. About 3% if the abortions in the united states involve the [B]Dilation and curettage (D&C) method , also used in the first three months of development. This method involves using a loop-shaped knife called a curette to scrape the womb, serving the childs attachment to the mother. The babys body is often cut into small pieced, and the head may be crushed to fit through the opening of the womb. (both suctions curettage and D&C can also be used for purposes other then abortion.) During the period between 13 and 20 weeks (3 and 5 months) of development, the most common method of abortion is the Dilation and evacuation (D&E) method. In this method, a pair of forceps is inserted into the mother womb, where they are used to dismember the child and drag the parts out of the womb through the birth canal. The tiny parts are often reassembled to ensure that none of the Childs remains are left in the womb. After 20 weeks, D&E is not longer practical, so abortionists occasionally use salt poisoning (saline abortion) to kill the child during this period. Using a long needle, they inject a salt solution (or something urea) into the amniotic sac. This concentrated salt solution is swallowed and inhaled by the child, causing hemorraging, shock, and often painful burning of the skin. The child thrashes about as it slowly dies, usually within an hour and a half. The dead child is then delivered though the birth canal within 2-3 days. Although most abortions are performed during the first three months of pregnancy, 10,000-15,000 per year are performed during the final three months of development, when the baby is capable of surviving outside the womb. When the child is so far advanced, Hysterotomy abortions are usually performed. In the procedure, witch is similar to a Caesarean section, the child is surgically removed from the womb, but is laid aside to die from neglect; a medical team would work around the clock to save this same child if he or she were born prematurely and wanted .Alternatively, the exposed child is killed while still in the womb then removed after he is dead. Some mid- and late- term abortions (after the 20th week) are also performed usiong the intact dilation and extraction (D&X) method or partial-birth abortion. In this method of abortion, the child is delivered alive though the birth canal just as in a normal live birth, except that he is delivered feet first. When all of his body except his head is outside the mother, the child Is then killed by a puncturuing the base of the skull and using suction to remove his brain, collapsing the skull so that the head can fit more conveniently through the opening of the birth canal. Learning what abortion is and how it is performed has caused many people to feel that is should again be abolished by civilized nations.
anyone after reading that still say abortion is not murder and they should have a "choice"???? anyone???
lol yeah... ive typed that out before... its the same exact one as what i put... but i didnt have the stuff before the different types of abortion
Listen it is not a child. I child is a human. A fetus is just an embreyo. It is not a human. It is not till the 3rd trimester that common science says a fetus has become a human. And I also and pro choice because I am pro stem cell research. And if we dont get new fetus's we dont get new stem cell strands. And with out the new strands we cant make as large of advances with the research.
QUOTE (Nysfinelilangel @ Jan 18 2005, 02:31 PM)
QUOTE (PyroslasherX @ Jan 18 2005, 01:09 PM)
And I am still pro choice on the grounds that Hysterotomy abortions, and (D&X) method or partial-birth abortion are rarley done and the fact that most abortion clinics will even allow them. That artical was written by some one who is against abortion adding a biased view to it. The keep saying kill the child. When in fact they are killing the fetus. All but the last 2 abortion methods are done to the fetus before it is technically an actuall person.
you can believe w/e u want, but as soon as the baby is conceived, its a child, a lot of doctors don't tell u that. And yes thos 2 methods are rarely done compared to the other methods, but there still done. And they do kill 10,000 to 15,000 babys a year.
You can believe "w/e u want", but not everyone agrees with you so stop dressing up your opinions as fact.
God, how stupid can people be. I don't care what you believe, but hasn't it already been firmly established that there is no "right" or "wrong" answer as to whether a fetus is a child?
Some people are not cut out to be parents for multiple reasons, if contreception fails they should have the choice. That is all I am saying on it. Your difference of opinions non withstanding, choice is important, not some overarching law.
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