When a person calls abortion murder, why would such a person care about the welfare of the woman? She's a murderer, after all. And what's wrong with guns anyway? It's hardly like Switzerland and Canada have major gun problems, for example.

I'm still truly enjoying how half of this is a broken record of histrionics, ad-hominems and a complete and total absence of any sign of ever attempting to see things from another point of view. And as for the "close-minded gun-toting conservative Bush-supporting rape-tolerating intolerant Iraqi-murdering misogynists" side of things...

*cheer* but this relies on schools giving decent sex education!!! Which most do not.

In short on abortion, I think Suzy makes a really good point. No matter what you do, keep/make abortion legal or make it illegal, women will be able to get abortions some way, and they will get abortions if they feel it is their right to do so and if they feel that they need to. The world will never be filled with people that all hate abortion--abortion will always exist in this world. I think the only thing left for pro-life people to decide is: do they want women to get unsafe, unregulated abortions, possibly too far into pregnancy at times -- or abortions that are regulated and safe for the mother's health? Hopefully when considered this way, the choice is clear.

Oh my gods, it's.....LOGIC. Crazy stuff that is.

Pro-Choice.

It isn't right for everyone and it totally depends on your situation. There will never be a resolution. It's a matter of opinion. Every woman faced with a pregnancy has to deal with the consequences of their decision. It's personal.

And yet pro-lifers still would rather two deaths than one... as it were. Ever feel like the only sane person on the planet?

Nevar!

It's not that great a point. It's a simple subsitution short of being crap. Prostitution, for example. Recreational drugs, for another. Seriously consider whether or not you can apply, among other things, to that line of thought and find yourself with an agreeable conclusion. If you can't, then what you're saying is not correct, just conveniently in accordance with your opinion on one subject.

Even if it is logically correct, that doesn't make it ethically right.

Well I'm not saying that everything can be look at in that perspective and that will make it all alright. Everything has to be looked at individually, in whatever line of thought you view it in. I'm saying, at least when it comes to abortion which was the only thing I was talking about, that's the reality of the situation. Pro-lifers can't make abortion go away. To me, it seems they can just make the conditions worse or better. Though personally, I don't have a problem with abortion so not only would I support it to make the conditions better but I also support it because I believe it's in the right of a woman to choose.

However, if I were to consider things like prostitution and recreational drugs, I would also agree with my perspective. They're always going to be around--at least for now, so why not make conditions better by regulating them and taking some control, hopefully eliminating some of the dangers.

Doesn't make what ethically right? Abortion in general or helping mothers have safe abortions? Speaking of abortion in general, what is "ethically right" is realitve.

Agree with you fully.

If the whole act of abortion is unethical then you must decide which is more unethical: backstreet illegal unsafe abortions in which both mother and said unborn baby die (using term baby loosely depending on stage of pregnancy) or safe legal abortions in a clean regulated controlled environment where only one life is lost as it were. It seems like a no brainer to me.

But then the way i see it, don't agree with abortion? Thats cool, don't have one. Its the beauty of choice. You can choose to have one and choose not to have one. Its a situation that suits everyone already.

Who's to say an illegal abortion is unsafe anyway? Who's to say they don't already happen with teenage girls who outright refuse to let their parents know what happened? Just because no one has died and had the cause of death come up as related to an illegal abortion (oh, by the way, current death rate from known illegal induced abortions is almost zero over the last decade), doesn't mean they aren't already happening.

What's more unethical: Letting people pay £500/gram for what turns out to just be talcum powder mixed in with glass, or legalising class A drugs where everyone would jump into such a lucrative business, under the scrutiny of government bodies and independent watchdogs? "What are the odds of someone selling a crack-head talcum powder?" Probably higher than dying from an illegal abortion.

What's more unethical: Paying for a sex with a diseased whore in a dingy slum (forcibly smuggled in from Romania, naturally), opening the customer to any number of infections or safe legal brothels with everyone being checked before the act? Actually, this one's probably just got a religious group or seven in the way.

What's more unethical: The risk of your child going out and drinking without you having a clue where your child is, or knowing and that your child does this and accepting that it's probably not worth trying to stop them? At least by allowing this, your child will probably tell you where they are and what they're doing, and if something goes wrong for your child they will have less reason to not tell you. On the other hand, you're allowing your to go out drinking and are probably contributing to whatever makes it a problem. Debatable at least, yes?

I maintain that if you can't call all of those no-brainers, you haven't looked at something hard enough. All have a considerably more dangerous potential outcome for disallowing it, all have something that people may see as wrong, and so all should be as clear-cut as your example, assuming yours really is.

There's different points of view on this subject.
It could be could and it could be bad.


Good:
If you're like young or something, or even not, and you get raped, then you have no choice, unless you want to put up with the kid.
It isn't your fault that you got raped.
I mean, you could try to escape or something, but then you could get killed or something.

Bad:
If you're just fooling around with a guy, and you just 'happen' to get pregnant, then that is YOUR fault.
You shouldn't kill a baby because of something that you did.
It's selfish and wrong.
Just because you can't put up with a kid, there's something called 'adoption'.
Never heard of it, look it up.

-x- so.in.love -x-

have you not read any of the 90 pages before this? Have you not heard of orphanages where there are many many children who never get adopted? its really not as easy as you think.

Yeah, it's insanely hard to adopt a child, they do all sorts of background checks, but they don't do anything like that if you get pregnant. Really, the adoption thing isn't an option at all, because a lot of kids don't get adopted. That's not to say none do, I know a few people who were adopted, but statistically, comparing the amount of kids who get adopted to those that don't, many never get adopted.

Also, it's not a case of YOUR fault, if you get pregnant. Contraception fails. I had a pregnancy scare a couple of months ago, and I HAD been using contraception. Would that have been my fault if I had got pregnant? NO. Would it have been the guy's? No. Shit actually just happens sometimes.

mas whats safe about the coat hanger method?

why'd this get unpinned?

WHO THE FUCK USES THE COATHANGER METHOD?!

girls in places where abortions are not available to them in a safe controlled environment

it should depends how far along the pregnancy is, i think

Why do you assume an illegal clinic would resort to coathangers, when they could use, oh, I don't know, actual surgical equipment?

I guess if you have no money, are unable to get to an illegal clinic, and a box of rocks has more common sense than you, you might try the coat hanger.

I rather have it legal so people don't do stupid things to get abortions, at least there would be safe way to do it.

I did't assume an illegal abortion center would.

But lets think about this logically...

Abortion is made illegal, so all these illegal places spring up and you start having to pay extreme amounts of money to get an abortion, which may or may not be safe.

Your a 15 year old kid without said money and are terrfied of telling your parents and/or other adult figure in your life and are driven is desperation to try another way to end the pregnancy eg. coathanger

Being young terrified and pregnant and broke will drive a person to places where common sense doesn't exist.

Though having just used the word young... being pregnant and desperate not to be at any age will drive a person to many lengths

That bears parallels to many things society tells us merely to look down upon, or section someone over. Why should I care?

But then, isn't it a social problem? That being a pregnant as a teenager is so looked down on? Wouldn't a better solution be to effect social change so that the 'terrified teenager to scared to tell her parents' situation doesn't exist

how are you going to change society? and can you still honestly say that every single 15 year old that gets pregnant could cope with having a child?

Because up to about 100 years ago they did. Society then changed, people got together later, and had children later. Societies do change, and unfortunately sometimes they change back at least partially.

Social change can be achieved through raising awareness and providing better education. The primary aim should be reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies occuring in the first place, sex education and easy access to contraception is still severely lacking. Then, better support is needed to assist when people do fall pregnant.

Right so were back in a massive circle aren't we? Education is where it all stems to. I mean it seems obvious that if there was better education the need would lessen (or at least we hope) and support would get better.

That's the theory, but define "better" education.

In the US education is rather bad compared to the European standard. The fact your government pays for "Sex is bad abstain" and "Condoms don't work" with regards to sex is terrible and is letting the religious influence your state and education. Which of course it should not.

Real education, based on facts, regarding sex, condoms, the pill, and all the rest is what is required. Sadly as long as the religious idiots have a lot of money and influence the US govern,ent it wont happen.

In the UK and Ireland specifically sex education is rather good overall, but could do with an update and also bring in the emotional side to sex, discussions on masturbation and so on.

The sex education I got was insanely bad, we were told that "generally only gay people get AIDS" and that you can get pregnant from touching each other if semen leaks through your clothes. I wasn't really paying attention though. However, if you have the internet, you have no excuse.

Currently more straight women then gay man have AIDS. Just something to consider for all of you who believe such stereotypes.

That is of no importance, for in the eyes of God, both are inferior!

The sex education I had was rubbish too. The only reason I knew about sex was my parents explaining things to me. Which raises another point - should this all have to be left to schools and teachers? My sex education in school was rubbish because I had an embarrassed female member of staff trying to explain the joys of puberty, periods, sex and pregnancy. As a result of her embarrassment we were all giggling and being silly and everything else went out the window.

Robb I agree with you, and it is sad that religion is allowed to interfere with education. Personally I think we could do with centres of people who teach education, i think it would be less embarrassing and much more effective coming from someone you don't then have to sit and listen to in maths when they have just put a condom over a banana.

Just a question; do you actually have to pay for an abortion in the US and also get consent from one or more of your parents in some states? To me that sounds ridiculous. I would imagine a majority of girls have an about because they cannot aford a child or the medical expences that come with giving birth regardless if they are giving the child up or not. Or for the reason a girl is too terrified to tell her parents or guardians, now shes gotta come up with the cash on her own at 15 and get a note from her parents? The united states confuses me more than I would have ever imagined possible. Correct me if I'm wrong about any of that, cause thats why I was asking in the first place. I'm Canadian, things are done a hell of alot different here.

I think its good and bad

It's bad to kill a kid but in some situtions you might have to do it for your own good. You dont want to have a dead baby. I think its also on the promblem.

you do for the most part have to pay for abortions here in the us. upwards from like $700 i think. Not all states do you need parental consent i dont think.

How is it done in canada? (sorry if you already posted it)

There are plenty of places in the US like Planned Parenthood where they offer abortions on a sliding scale, or what you can afford to pay.

A 15 year old without a job more than likely would qualify for some assistance financially either through the clinic itself, or a state program.

Very few states require parental consent. And even then, if you can't get consent, I am fairly sure you can get a judge in court to allow you to without it.

I'm not sure how the parental consent thing goes here, but I know that you can get an abortion done for free here, only if it's in the first trimester. After that, you have to pay (I think). The only thing you have to pay for with the free abortion is anesthesia and pain meds after which is only around 20 bucks. I think after your first abortion they start charging though.

In Canada it's free, any time everytime. You do not need parental consent, but you need proof of pregnancy (ultrasound/blood test) by a doctor. You can get it done up to 15 months I think, then it's more high risk. You don't pay for any medications they give you to make you drowsy, the only thing you have to pay for is a pill before hand to take to prevent infection which they give you a subscrition for that you need to get filled.
It's nice to know that the US has places that can cover finaces though. I was thinking it was alittle pointless to have to pay for an abortion if you were doing it for financial reasons in the first place because my cousin gave birth there and oh my it's an expensive price to pay to give life.

Surely you mean 15 weeks, as homosapiens gestation period is only 9 months.

Abortion is very wrong to me.

Yes you have a right to do what you want.

But still killing a innocent being. Thats wrong,very wrong.

I found this rather amazing today. At our school, People had this thing where you wouldn't talk for the whole day to show that you were against abortion. Many of my friends and myself did so. I didn't last but a couple periods, But it was just really awesome how everyone got together to do that. I just thought I would share.

sounds like the day of silence that people do for gay rights. Still cool though!

A question to the antiabortionist crowd here, if you could answer beside each one your views please.

1) Is the morning after pill abortion? If so why?

2) A ball of cells does not equal a human life? Or does it? If so why.

3) Case of incestual rape, or that the child will not last an hour outside the womb, would abortion be permissable in your view then?

Just a few ideas bouncing around in my head.

Rehashed questions are rehashed...

Also,

Question 1 answered all too factually!

I have not read anything else written, so I have no idea if what Im going to say has already been said or not.
Once a the sperm reaches the egg, there is a baby. No matter how far along a person is, it is still wrong to kill the baby.
There have been movies showing abortions from the inside.
I've seen it. The fetus knows what is happening. It freaks out. Believe it or not, baby's do cry while inside.
I am sooo against abortion.
Would you kill the baby when it was born? Why not? It's the same thing as an abortion. Killing a child.
If you really don't want it that bad, give the baby up for adoption! Every child is wanted by someone, weather there is something wrong with them or not!

You really should have read back over the topic. Once the sperm hits the egg it is not a baby, it's a bunch of cells that is not sentient. Until the neural tissue, ie brain and spine fully form, the feutus is not even sentient or aware, hence your arguement fails.

Also video from inside? I'd love to see your source on that..honestly I would.

So a feutus has a mouth at 4 weeks old?
I'd love to see how that works.
Doesn't have the muscles to cry either.

personally; i dont believe in abortions.
its wrong & inhumane.
if you made the child you should take care of it.
abortion doesnt make you any less of a mother; your just the mother too an unborn child.
it makes me sick too think that young; immature; mind-less females can kill their child before its given a chance at life.
most dont see the harm in abortions, its just WRONG think of it that way.
& think about the fact that your mother could of said " oh, i dont want this use-less, mind-less fetus, im gonna get an abortion & hatch a plan for my next MISTAKE."
lmao. much love, buh bye.

your topic suckssss.