It can be debated that if you have the abortion early enough you are not punishing the child, as it's not even sentient and doesn't have the brain or neural tissue to be aware. At that point it's as much alive as tumour or organ.

Having an abortion is rather traumatic for the woman, at least in most circumstance, so if they really want to go through with it I don't see a real issue, as long as they get all the counselling they are entitled to. I don't agree with late stage abortions at all, unless it's medical reasons.

Religion will enter into it in one way, it colours peoples views. However it should not affect those that do not share those same beliefs at all. Just because your religion does not like it does not mean others should not have the option of it. (Islam and not letting women drive or have eduction for example).

I don't really want to get into the whole abortion thing because it's old and tired and I wish it wasn't a sticky anymore, but, what the heezy is up with this?

Remember, love, sex is evil. And it's really evil to enjoy it.

at the risk of being repetitive of others, i am going to put my two cents in on this topic.

I am pro-life for several reasons i consider to be legitimate.

1. a fetus is what i consider to be a human. if you disagree with me on this subject, you should at least agree there is potential for a human life. i dont care what the dictionary defintion of murder is, i believe terminating that potential for life is killing.

2. a big arguement on why abortion should be legal is rape. The chances of a woman getting pregnant when they are raped is slim, since its only one case of intercourse, and even then rape victims are such a small percentage of women who get abortions. These people argue that woman suffer terrible pyschological issues after being raped, and i agree with that. however, there are many women that suffer pyschological issues after recieving abortions. these include extreme cases of guilt and also often times, when these women choose to have families, they have problems getting close to their children because of thier previous abortions. its true, i know people it has happened to.

3. So many women use abortion as an easy way out. Abortion is so easily available. its like saying, " oh hey, you dont want your baby? well i can dispose of it for you." when people chose to have sex, they knew perfectly well what could be the consequences of their choice. and i dont want to hear any sh*t about how condoms sometimes break, because people should realize that this happens too. when a girl gets pregnant, its because of the results of her own actions. The topic starter stated that abortion was a way of dealing with the pregnancy. its not. its getting rid of the " problem" ( which i by no means consider a baby a problem) so you dont have to deal with it.

I can see where you are coming from.

I just disagree, and as such while I myself do not like abortion, I wont stop others from the right to have them.

Abortion is not just an easy way out. It is a way of dealing with the situation. If it was easy to get an abortion, the girl dealing with it wouldn't have to decide what was best for her.

I don't like abortions as I've stated in this thread previously. However, in the end it is the girl's choice. No one else's.

Anyone can have pyschological problems. Rape victims and those who have abortions. It doesn't mean that they will be distant from their children later on. Just because you know someone. Not everyone deals with it the same way. Rape victims need the right to an abortion if they become pregnant and don't want the child.

It's also not that widely available, you know it's still illegal in Ireland. And in the past they have taken people to court because they'd be going over to England to have one. If they were illegal everywhere, you'd have people maybe performing them themselves out of desperation and stuff, which is a whole lot worse. Seriously, it's NOT the easy way out.

First: Some people actually do stop doing things when they become made illegal, because it invariably becomes dangerous to do it. When people continue to do it and find themselves in trouble for it, society tends to take the view that such people are fools. Overdosers, people going totally blind from moonshine, and so on. Short of brainwashing, why would society care about a woman with a vacuum cleaner and a conducting baton with a precedent like that?

Second: I suspect that anyone that desperate for an abortion most likely has social problems that are by no means the fault of the absence of legal abortion.

That is true, Mas, I was just using extremes to try and get my point across is all.

That person could end up being in more danger because of the absence of legal adoption however. Coathanger method, bottle of drink, drugs etc all to try and cause a misscarriage. I would be a great deal easier for abortion to be legal, and then those that don't want one don't have one. Simple enough...

I totally agree with you. if you are not ready to have a baby, there is only one answer: Dont have sex. Just because you are too irresponsible doesn't mean an innocent baby should suffer.

Once again, and unsurprisingly, the pro-life rabid nuts miss out on incest and rape.....

It neatly balances out the rabid nuts that won't shut up about them. Neither are significant, measuring in at a hefty almost none of them and a convincing almost none of them.

Fun fact: Roe vs. Wade was a case where she lied about being raped to get an abortion. Isn't that a nice precedent?

Restricting abortion to incest and rape would probably be more dangerous than the current situation. We'll just have women running to the police stations screaming rape, which will eventually result in an even lower rape conviction rate, which would likely eventually stretch the definition of rape over here to "Whenever she has sex and then decides to report it as a rape, she has been raped", just to raise conviction rates. The legal definition of rape has already been changed over here for exactly that purpose before, you can't say it couldn't be done.


Thus, to ban abortion you must ban it completely, or restrict it to serious medical risks.

I am not for abortion or anything but I don't completely disagree with it either. But this statement is completely wrong, so the child should have to be punished with having a parent(s) that only kept it as "punishment" because they made the choice to have sex?? maybe people should be more responsible and have SAFE sex. maybe then there would be less unwanted babies getting mistreated, or abandoned because their parents couldn't make a responsible choice to do what was right for THEM, which may very well turn out to be the best choice for the unborn baby/fetus etc. The baby didn't choose to be conceived, so why should it have to suffer for someone elses mistakes? Not to mention what if you were raped? can you say for SURE that you could keep that baby and be able to take care of it properly?

In response to many people who have posted “don’t have sex if you can take care of a baby” and to those who can state “if you were some stupid teen who had sex and wants to get rid of a child” what if having an abortion is the ONLY option?

A couple weeks ago one of my best friends had to have an abortion, not because she wanted, but because she had to. The Doctor felt there would be too much risk if she tried to carry the baby the full nine months and an even higher risk of complications to her and the baby during and right after birth. Basically, it was a lose-lose situation. She had no other option than to have an abortion. My friend is 16 and no, she wasn’t “some stupid teen who had sex.” She had sex for the second or third time, with her boy friend of 2 years and she was safe about it, they used a condom and she was on birth control, why none of this worked I have not idea.

Sometimes, abortion is the only option as my friend learned recently. She was going to take responsibility for her actions. I would also like to add, that it comes across that when people have abortions, they just get it done and are done with it. For some people this may be the case, but from what I have seen, it’s not like that and it’s not an easy choice to make, it certainly wasn’t for my friend it wasn’t at all something she took lightly. I can truly say that it has changed her life forever and she did and has not taken that fact that she had an abortion lightly.

If you are pro-life or pro-choice, it doesn’t really matter to me, please just remember that there is a mental/emotional side to abortions, it may not be the same for all people, but when your friend calls you at 2 in the morning crying because she had no choice but to give up her baby, it changes things a little. My main point is, for everyone to at least think about the fact that there is more the abortion debate than being a “stupid teen” who had sex , having safe sex, or not having sex at all if you can take care of a baby…
Sometimes you have to be on the phone at 2 in the morning with someone who has gone through this to truly understand that it’s way more than people can just post about.

How can you say abortion is a good thing. I think it is the WORST thing in the world. I mean for gods sake if you dont want the kid. Then put it up for adoption for the people in the world cant have a beautiful daughter or son. If you think abortion your wrong. Have you not heard the quote "The kids today are our future" and thats true that kid that you just KILLED could have been the next president of the USA. Why would you wanna kill some beautiful kid that could be yours. If you didnt want it then you could have used this thing called a rubber (condom). Thats what there ment for. You people do know that Abortion is like murder. no it is murder. And when my mom had an abortion it broke my heart because i could have a little brother or sister. All im saying is dont EVER say that abortion is the way. cause its not. =[[

KayCee

Ok, glad to see you're still missing the point and other posts anyones made.

Use a condom, some of us have, and they break. Then there is rape, no one asked to be raped, or get pregnant from it.

In short, THINK before you type, because your post clearly shows you haven't considered other sides.

Rather than glaring at your mother and immediately thinking what she did was horrible, did it ever occur to you that it might be slightly different from her perspective? It sounds like you're just judging without considering any of the facts. Not everyone sees the "gift" of life the same way. So rather than condemning everyone, why don't you try and have a bit of empathy?

Like the person posted a couple posts above, there can be HEALTH issues where they could both 'lose'. So adoption might not be an option.
Condoms break, birth control can fail.
And as people keep mentioning, rape. So your saying, that if your uncle or relative raped you, you would go through with it?
Its not as black and white as murder.

Ok, first off, you can have your opinion, but like people have said you haven't even considered the other side of it. And like I posted before and Jadey sometimes abortion is the ONLY way, maybe it was like that for your mom, I don't know, but did you ever consider that? Would you really want your mom to have the baby and then not be there to take care of it? And like I posted before about my friend, the condom did break and her birth control failed. It doesn't matter if your pro choice or life, sometimes abortion is the only way.

You'd think she'd (a) know, and (b) mention it if her mother was going to die without it.

Give a very solid reason why your friend couldn't give birth the baby. Actually couldn't. Why was it, as you say and stress repeatedly, the only way?

[quote name='Mas Tnega' date='Feb 9 2008, 11:05 AM' post='825612']
[quote name='wonderwallbyoasis' post='825609' date='Feb 9 2008, 03:19 PM']Ok, first off, you can have your opinion, but like people have said you haven't even considered the other side of it. And like I posted before and Jadey sometimes abortion is the ONLY way, maybe it was like that for your mom, I don't know, but did you ever consider that? Would you really want your mom to have the baby and then not be there to take care of it?[/quote]You'd think she'd know, and mention it if her mother was going to die without it.[/quote]

I was just making a statement that maybe her mom had reasons for not having the baby. Like I said above, I don't know. I don't know anything about her mom’s pregnancy, other than that she had an abortion. The only point I was trying to make was that maybe her mom had a reason, and maybe her mom didn't share that reason with her, again, I don't know. Again the only point I was trying to make was that maybe her mom had a reason.

[quote]And like I posted before about my friend, the condom did break and her birth control failed. It doesn't matter if your pro choice or life, sometimes abortion is the only way.
[/quote]Give a very solid reason why your friend couldn't give birth the baby. Actually couldn't. Why was it, as you say and stress repeatedly, the only way?[/quote]

To clarify, I’m NOT saying abortion is the only way nor am I stating where I stand on abortion. The whole point of me posting about my friend was because FOR HER, she had no other option. Basically like I stated in my earlier post, the doctor told her that it was her or the baby. She sixteen and a small girl, she had had heath issues before she got pregnant, the doctor talked with her about the risks, and about the complications, I don't know all the details because I wasn’t at that appointment with her.

I only wanted to make a point that for some people in certain situations, abortion is the only option. My friend did not want to give her baby up, she did not want to have the abortion, but she also was not willing to bring a new life into the world and then not be there to take care of it.

If you guys keep saying that everyone has there own toughts and crap then why are you all yelling at me about it. God....

Because while you have your own opinion you are refusing to consider certain things when it comes to abortion, such as rape cases.

The problem is that you are so absolute with your belief. Life is not black and white dear. There are many shades inbetween that you are refusing to consider.

For instance: do you risk losing the life of the mother over the life of a newborn?

Further to that: Do you allow the mother the option either way?

You are aloud to have you own thoughts and opinions by why do you think your opinions are inferior to everyone elses? If your against abortion then don't have one.

There are circumstances that change things, and KayCee you are absolutely refusing to consider any of them. And we know, as has been said that if it is onlt allowed in certain extenuating circumstances, then every girl who wants one is going to claim these cirumstances. As a result, people aren't going to take rape cases seriously.

(that's a bad thing, in case you didn't know.)

One thing that annoys me about the abortion debate is that pro-choice people put rape cases up on a pedestal and use that as their excuse for everything. Some even say that it's okay for rape cases and not for others. If you're going to support choice, you should support choice fully and not always fall back on the rape argument. Furthermore, just because you support choice doesn't mean you support abortion. I don't like the idea of abortion, I don't like to think about abortion, I don't relish in the idea of destroying a feotus in some pretty horrible methods. However, I 100%, unconditionally support a woman's right to choose what she is going to do.

You have to realise, if it's an unplanned pregnancy she's the one that's going to have to live with the stigma of being a single mother. She's the one that, already in a world where pay parity is a myth let alone a world where women are still discriminated against when it comes to higher-paying jobs and careers, is going to have to cope with the financial situation a baby will bring. Who wants an emotionally immature, or non-existent mother? How many orphans or unwanted children are there ALREADY in the world that need someone to care for them, without us adding another one?

I mean, jesus. This "next president" argument gets on my tits, too. You know who else could've been the next president? The kid that died after being hit by a bus. Ban buses! Or maybe that kid whose parachute didn't open when they were doing a sky-dive. Oops, you better cut out extreme sports. ANYONE who has died, REGARDLESS of when they cease to exist, has the potential to be president. (In the broadest sense; I mean, I doubt a lot of aborted feotuses had any chance to be president, noting STATISTICS or abortion rates between ethnic minorities and then factoring into this the socio-economic factor, and then the additional struggle against a society that is still racist and misogynist and THIS IS ONLY IN WESTERN CULTURE.)

I'm going to stop now because this debate is getting seriously boring. You all know where I stand and why.

Not really. Here's something to make you understand how stupid that point really is:
http://www.jesus21.com/poppydixon/sex/abortion.html

With these answers, every child should be aborted...

Ah yes a religious site. Fail. Failure, epic failure. Religion is no excuse as we clarified a long time ago in this debate.

You obviously didn't bother to read it.

I did, and I find the site it linked to hilarious, hence my saying failure. That being said the response questions are amusing. Especially the last one. Definately recommend abortion for that one.

Exactly, that was to show stupid the whole "but he/she could be the worlds next president" statement really is. He could also be the worlds next Jeffrey Dahmer.

Any little bundle of cells in someone's uterus could be absolutely anything. Could also be a mass-murdering psychopath. It's a 50/50, so that argument is really a load of bullshit.

im pro-choice. Some people have accidents, like getting pregant while their on birth control, or the condom ripping, or just being stupid and not using either. Some people arent ready, or well enough prepared to take care of a child. some people dont even want a child. i know that if i was the kid of someone who didnt want me, regardless whether or not my parents gave me up for abortion or kept me, i wouldnt want to be alive. how could you want that if you knew the whole time along that you werent wanted, that you were a big accident, or an oh SHIIT. thats why im pro-choice.

i can just see people arguing with me..oh well if your not prepared for the child then you dont need to have sex. do me a favor..
SAVE IT. people are going to continue having sex with your opinion or not.

Way to sum up your value on life.


"I foresee people reiterating an old argument in my direction: It's my body and my right to have sex outside of marriage.
SPARE US. People are going to continue calling it irresponsible self-indulgence and you a whore, irrespective of your thoughts."

"I sense a response to what I've said: It's my heart and I may give it to whomever.
GIVE OVER. People are going to continue thinking of you as a sinful faggot, whatever you say about it"

"I am aware of the inevitability of the old counter: It is my body and right to excise the unborn child within me, by the hands of professional medics.
DON'T BOTHER. People are going to stand outside the abortion clinic, screaming at your countless 'murders', regardless of your own protestations.

See how weak that argument is? "People are still going to do it" applies to anything people do and people do things that other people don't like them doing.

Couldn't have put it clearer myself

first off, it had nothing to do with my life vaules.

secondly- i was gunna sit here and tell you what i meant by what i said, but i paged back a couple times and read your responses to other people who are pro-choice, and decided it wasnt even worth it, you obiviously dont listen if they are pro-life.

sorry if my opinoin made you upset, but i was just stating how i felt about the matter, not trying to get into an argument with you.

i was 17 and got pregnant WHILE USING BIRTH CONTROL PILLS AND CONDOMS, obviously the birth controlled failed and i ended up having triplets. how u wonder? gee maybe it was the birth control. i DONT HAVE ANY MULTIPLES IN MY FAMILY NOR DO MY HUSBAND. though i was graduating high school soon and was going to a top college i gave my life up for my children. so when people say use a condom or get on birth control SHXT can still happen! im a prime example!

though ii wasn't ready.. abortion was not my choice..

Condoms can fail, as can birth control pills. However the odds of that actually happening are rather slim, in the order of one in 50 million if using both properly. They key word being properly.

More power to you giving up everything to take care of your kids though.

Shit happens. But as my mum said "at least you're giving it a shot" by going on the Pill.

It teaches the Teens a lesson not to have sex if they cannot handle the consequences.
After the child is born they don't have to raise the baby they can put it up for adoption. In my opinion abortion is bad. If you were raped thats another story but in any other case it is just wrong. You could have used protection when you were having sex. I personally think you shouldn't even have sex until you are married and you know that you can support a child.

Okay, Im gonna talk about my beleifs on this subject.

Abortion is terrible. I for one am definately against killing a child just because your dumbazz had sex and couldn't deal with the consequences when you got pregnant. A child should NOT be punished becuase of your mistakes. You could put the baby up for adoption if you can't support it, and there are certain things where you can give the baby to a family that cant have children. I think that would probobly be the best thing to do. Yeah, I say you should always take birth control and use a condom, but you should already know that there is no gurentees that you wont get pregnant. But again, it is your choice to have sex and you have to deal with what happens after it. It is up to you to wait until marriage, which is a good idea, because then you know that you can support your child and you can provide what it needs. But, I know most teenagers want to have their first times before they are out of highschool. Trust me, I know what you are feeling with that. But people, abortion is just terrible, you should not punish the child. Now, I know rape can happen, and you could get pregnant because of that, but you should still not get an abortion. It is a horrible thing to do, imagine if your mom had sex too young, and got pregnant, and then they decided to get an abortion, you would not be reading this right now. You would not have gotten to do anything, all because your mom thought she had no other choice. So you see? There are other things you can do, and you should think about what would have happened if your mom had gotten an abortion. Well thats my thoughts on this subject.

1. Not all people who get pregnant are idiots who didn't think of contraception. Contraception can fail.

2. Waiting until marriage doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be able to financially support the child, some people get married straight out of highschool. Do you think an 18 year old is going to be able to support a child?

3. Do you have a clue how the adoption service works? Most of those children end up in care for the rest of their lives, it's not nearly as simple as you're making out.

4. We've already covered that the "deal with the consequences" approach is sick and wrong because it's using a life to ruin another's.

5. I'd rather my mother had an abortion if she didn't want to have me than to grow up knowing she didn't want to have me and I ruined her life.

I have a clear cut reason for being pro-choice. I'm pro-choice but would never get an abortion. It is, after all my body. I wouldn't want someone telling me I can't do this or can't do that to MY body. It is my life and I'd have to live with whatever decision I chose. No one else.


One and only? You are against abortion when it comes to rape as well? How so? Rape is VERY traumatic. What if that girl couldn't live with having a man's child that hurt her that way? She definately did NOT ask for it.

If my mom did have an abortion, I wouldn't know anything anyways. I wouldn't. And I wouldn't know anything to care. It would be my mother's choice to have had me or not. Not mine. I'm here now because she had chosen to have me. When you are inside your mother you are at the mercy of her to make the choices.

^ Agreed.

I personally really don't think i'd ever have an abortion, i can't say for sure because i've never been in a situation like that. So i'm not gonna say i would NEVER have one, but i really really don't think i would.
This is probably because i do believe that it isn't right.
And I'm actually pretty moderate-conservative on most issues.
However, i think that when it comes to abortion, i am pro-choice. Not because i think abortion is a good solution to a pregnancy, but because i feel that it is no one's business but the person who is having the abortion. I personally believe it is wrong, i do. But i also feel like "who am i to tell ANYONE what they can and can't do to their body." I am pro-choice, because i am all for choice and all for rights and liberty. I can go on and on, on why i believe that having legal abortions is actually the best way to keep abortions low and safe... (yeah, countries who have legal abortion actually have a lower number of abortions, i actually wrote a research paper on this about a year ago, and i had to do extensive research for it.) but i'm not because like i just said, it is nobodys business. And i often hear people say "if you don't believe in abortions.. don't have one" And i think that's true.

And people who go an protest and try to do all those crazy things, to try and get Roe v. Wade overturned, need to go home and take care of their own family and stop being so concerned about what OTHER people are doing with their bodies.
Also, i feel that when you point the finger at someone 3 more are being pointed at you. It bothers me that people try to "fix" other peoples lives, when they aren't asking for anyone to "fix" anything. Maybe those people should take a hard look at themselves, nobody is perfect and chances are their time would be put to better use if they focused on "fixing" their own families. Plus, people who are having abortions are gonna do it weather or not those people approve.


I see life as the big picture that it is... You got two choices in life; be happy or be sad and angry.
People need to just be happy and let everyone else be happy and live their life as they want to live it.
What are you going to gain from being angry at the world, anyway?

People who are against abortion are delusional. Simple as that. Do they honestly think that if abortion is illegal people aren't going to seek them out? Of course they will! And that's a far worse thought, coat-hangers and knitting needles down an alley. Is that what you think women should turn to?

Ever notice most anti-abortionists are very religious, pro gun, support Bush, and think the war in Iraq was a good thing?