The argument fell through? When did that happen?

The comparison of a unicellular organism to a developing foetus does not work, because of what the foetus will become. Also an abortion does make you unpregant, because you're not pregnant after, are you?

Also, by being pro-life, by the very nature, makes one anti-choice.

All the foetus can become is greater than that lifeform.

Anti-that-choice.

um...i truly believe that abortions are bad b/c a female is not just hurting herself, but she's killing her unborn child as well. i dont care how bad u want to get an abortion jus dont do it. if u feel as if you're going to get pregnant and not want to take care of or have the child then dont have sex if you're not ready to become a parent ...im not saying that i would never consider having an abortion if i got pregnant by my boyfriend...i would jus have the baby and take it from there. Abortions do not only kill the unborn seed you're holding but it can damage your body and give you future problems in the future, thats why i believe abortions are bad

Why do people say "if you don't want to get pregnant don't have sex." What the fuck? Has no one heard of contraceptives?

Also, abortions won't damage your body, nor with they cause you future problems, if they're done properly. That is, done by a professional doctor and not a coat hanger in an alley. However, there is a chance of developing problems and damaged organs, but this may not necessarily happen. It's not a certainty at all.

So won't is wrong, whereas can is right.

Why coat hanger? If there were a danger of them actually having to do an abortion, 'back alley' doctors could always order this.
Also, they aren't the only negligent ones.

1) Contraception, sex without pregnancy.
2) Some people don't want children, ever. So they should never have sex?
3) Teenagers have sex, some have safe sex. If the condom fails, they should have a child?
4) Abortions do not damage a body if done professionally.
5) What about if you are raped?

I was talking worst case scenario, Mas, and I know that professional doctors can make just as many fuck-ups. I was only trying to demonstrate her ignorance.

It is possible to have sex and not get pregnant, BY USING CONTRACEPTION. If this fails, however, they should not be forced to bring an unwanted child into the world.

it is an interesting topic and throughout the world there are so many beliefs about it, however i am completly against abortion. i do not at all think that it is right or fair to end anyones life, especially an innocent being. i am catholic which means i should never abort, but even if i wasnt i still wouldnt. some people say that if the woman is pregnant due to rape or if her baby has deformaties then she should be allowed to abort, but i still think it is wrong. there is a child growin inside of her which she can love no matter what the situation!

I'll be honest, and very blunt here. Sounds like you've never been raped or known someone who has been. You are very lucky.

i understand your point and opinion, but im sorry i guess thats just how i feel. but i do know people who have been raped, i just dont think thats its fair on the child that they arent given a chance to be part of the world just because of one horid mans actions...

So what you're saying is, a woman who has already had a brutal crime committed against her, should be forced to live with a permenant reminder of the horror she has been through. It's not as simple as what you're saying, I know the baby itself hasn't done anything wrong, but could you imagine being forced to love someone who was brought into the world because of something that brutal? I think not.

well kinda yea. im sorry i really dont wana upset ppl here, but it says be open minded. she could have the baby and give it up for adoption if she didnt want the constant reminder..

I agree with you. It's not the mother's fault that she got raped nor the baby. She could give it up for adoption. But this is a very touchy subject.

She'd be reminded of it every day for nine months...I find it very strange that people think it's wrong to force a person into sexual intercourse, but some people think it's right to force a person to have a child that they don't want.

You find it strange, I find it cruel and unusual punishment for a crime that was committed against them. But then again no longer in the US does one have the right against cruel and unusual punishments.

I'm glad I live in a move civilized place.

In the case of rape, the options are:
Cruelly punish the mother with 9 months of an unwanted pregnancy.
Cruelly punish the child by taking its life away, and the mother by performing a procedure that is equally as intrusive as rape.

Abortion is by no means a trivial action, nor is it a panacea for rape. It will never erase memories of the event. You will always have to live with the fact that it happened, but you ensure someone else doesn't get to live at all.

in my opinion, i support abortion. I understand that it is like murder but i think that if a woman shoud not have to go through 9 months of pregnancy including all of the morning sickness etc etc when she deosnt want it. After she has gone through the hours of painful labour, the child will be bought up in a unloved environment. Putting up a child for adoption could also probably mess up the child later in life wondering why the parents didnt want them. Sex is a normal thing for hormonal teenagers (i havnt had it) and contraception can fail therefore, highlighting the points i discussed above about unwanted pregnancys.

I want to really hurt people who say "well it serves them right for having sex." So, what, use a human life to "punish" someone? That's just sick. I was reading old posts on this thread, wow, some of the stuff people came out with.

as wrong as abortion is to me, i believe every woman has a choice. under circumstances such as rape, i believe sometimes its better to erase that reminder.
and of course, rape or not, that -ending- of a life, is going to affect the mother. it doesnt make her a muderer but the fact that she is going to live with that choice is for her to make.
its best to try to avoid situations that may lead to abortion, no one wakes up and says "oh i think ill go have sex and get pregnant and get an abortion this week!" now if that were the case, the person is a nutcase and should be seen as a criminal.
sex isnt always a choice. anyone who has had experiences such as rape or know anyone that has knows that.
and of course it's the baby's fault. but i dont think people realize the height of a situation until they are in those shoes.

yeh i totally agree with supa star. i mean i definitely think abortion is horrible and wrong, but theres some situations where the mother might be hardcore into drugs, or living on the streets and not have money to raise her child.

i mean think of how many times u hear on the news how horrible when someone dumps their baby in a dumpster? if abortions were illegal then that would happen sooo much more. i also think its wrong for bush to be making this law. it would be different if like hilary clinton were president cause shes a woman. but for a male president to tell woman what they're allowed to do with their body?... pshhhh

In some cases, I think abortion is fine. In other cases, I think it's wrong.

Well that's the case with most things, sometimes it's okay, other cases it's not. So you're going to have to give us something to go on, rather than something so general.

I meant, abortion would be fine in cases like rape, ect.

You want to post in here you are going to need to give better answers then that. Explain yourself or don't bother taking part.

Sorry.

...

What part of "No single word or single sentances posts in Society" are you having trouble understanding?

You are now officially warned. Do it again and risk being banned.

Yeah, I was going to do that yesterday, but I get really sick of saying it. What are the chances we'll get a one-word apology for this? One line stuff is fine in other threads (well it's actually not really), but don't post in society unless you actually have something to say. It's not the place to up your post count.

i dont support abortion at all and someone earlier posted an abortion letter from the unborn child to the mother who aborted her. Im catholic and the catholic faith is against abortion if you saw pictures the people who support it would change their minds. the only way i can accept it is if the mother is in danger of loosing her life

I've seen those pictures, the anti-abortion crowd stand on the middle of O'Connel Street in Dublin city and shove those pictures on large placards at people, including children, traumatising them. I do not like those people very much, and this I do no like you very much.

However let us be glad that catholics don't rule the world.

Anyone who lives in Dublin and goes into town on a Saturday has seen the pictures. Graphic pictures, and little kids see them. If you try to ignore their yelling, they call you a baby-killer. And I'm not kidding, those people make me sick.

But in fairness, I think you should give a better reason for opposing abortion than that it is what your religion believes. I was pro-choice long before I stopped calling myself Catholic. What do YOU believe? Or are you just going to accept what you've been told to believe.

Of course not! Not with a bunch of Bible-bashing nutjobs on the loose. I'm NOT saying everyone who's pro-life is a Bible-bashing nutjob, I'M NOT, but really the way things are in Ireland are ridiculous.

Ha, I saw a sign with a dead embryo on it during a community bikathon. Some guy was waving it around as the biker's came past.

One professional-biker guy stopped and ask the guy to "Please put the sign down, sir." Gotta say I have respect for a person who doesn't get angry when people pull sick stuff like that.



I have seen the pictures (as previously stated), and I have to say that they don't change my opinion. I'm pro-abortion, and I'm pro-abortion because I'm never going to have to give birth. I don't believe it's my right to tell somebody else what to do if I'll never do it myself or have never done it myself. People should be responsible for themselves - or whatever is growing within themselves.

Oddly enough, I'm not disgusted by the pictures either. Maybe I can just stomach the peculiar.

Im all for abortion.
Heres my opinion:

Womens body, womens choice

No one else should have the right to question the choices of a woman making such a big decision because if abortion is chosen, then it would have been the right decision for that particular woman and shouldnt really be an issue to those weiners with the signs.

I'm completly against abortion and I'm going to be completly honest as to why; Because I had one.
Do not judge me at all, and if you do, I'll snap at you. And you don't want that, really.
I had an abortion and I do not reccomend it or support it what so ever. I never wanted one I have to admit. I was corced into having one, and if you don't understand what that means, Ill explain. I was forced to have an abortion by my family, friends and doctor. I know many of you can just say 'you didn't have to do it' but unless you've had one, you don't have an opinion in this issue so keep it to yourself. It was the most emotional and painful time of my life because everyone I ever cared about and loved had no faith in me as a parent or a mature adult. They convinced me I could not do it, and even if I could I wouldnt have support from them. When everyone has no faith in you to do something, you completly lose faith within yourself as well. I felt like everyone was right, and I was wrong. So I did what everyone else told me to do, have an abortion.

They made it seem so quick and simple, and the sad part is it was. The procedure takes about 5 minutes. You take two little pills that start your uterus contractions and then it just gets sucked out. Just like that, like its nothing. Except it's everything. Absolutly everything.

My parents, doctors, social workers, nurses and everyone I talked to had convinced me I could move on afterwards and live my life agian, finish school, get a good job and so on. Guess what? I haven't moved on. I think about it constantly. I cry everyday and I'm not okay. They can't relate. They can't sympathize with me. They didn't have the most precious thing to them ripped away in 3 minutes. They don't understand the feeling that I get everytime I hear the names I was going to name my child, or when I see a little baby in a resturant on at the mall. They don't understand how guilty and sad I feel. They don't understand how angry I am towards them for making me do what I never wanted to do, for making me feel like I had no choice.

They didn't witness what I witnessed. They didn't and aren't going through what I did and still going through. They didn't sit in the waiting room on the third floor of the hospital with 8 other woman young and old. They didn't see the sad looks on every single one of thier faces. They didn't see girl after girl come out of the operating room one by one crying hysterically but at the same time, completly oblivious to the world around them. They didn't lay on the bed squeezing the nurses hand begging the doctor to stop and only hearing 'it will be over soon' in responce. They didn't come home and cry for 8 straight hours because they just lost thier child. No one, absolutly no one can understand how it feels to lose a child unless you have. No one can judge someone who has had an abortion unless they have had one themselves. For some it may mean nothing, just a routine thing. But for me, it was everything.

Also I don't think people should walk around being all 'pro-abortion' because they nieve as to the pain it causes. Im not a hypocrite, so do not call me one. I was always pro-life, always. Even if I wasn't pro life before the abortion I bet I'd still feel the very same way. I bet my reply will get a few comments saying how I'm a horrible person but if you're that immature where you'd make a comment about me being a bad person, because as you should be able to see I am in no way a cold hearted person. I didn't post this to get sympathy or anything, because I don't deserve it. I believe every ounce of pain I feel from now to the day I die I deserve completly. I didn't request any type of drug before my abortion because as I said to my nurse 'If its going to hurt then I want to feel it, I deserve it.'

Bottom line, don't judge people who have had abortions, many of us aren't horrible people and feel the same way I do. Some, sadly do use it as a birth control and I personally think thats sick and disturbing. You can be pro-life all you want, but don't say things such as they are horrible people and so on because most of us are already punishing ourselves and don't need to hear uninformed, immature people's comments. Thank you very much.

Well said, lyn, and I'm very sorry for what you had to go through, and I know those words sound trite and really quite crap to my own ears. I myself am pro-choice, but I want every little uninformed little shit to read that and THEN say that abortion is the easy way out. That's been said on this forum too many times. Or "serves you right for having sex". I want to kill people who say things like that.

Exactly. I always hear things like 'You shouldn't have put yourself in that situation', which confuses me because I didn't realise me being 18, almost 19 and a high school graduate with a good full time job and the father being 19 graduated also with a job was a bad situation. Infact that's a pretty good situation compared to some.
People who say abortion is the easy way out are complete idiots. It's just as hard to have a child at a young age as it is to abort a child. Because in both situations there are 'what ifs' *What if I hadn't gotten pregnant at 16 and had to drop out of school* or *What if I would have had the baby, would it have had a good life?*
I completly understand why some people would want to have abortions. But unlike them, I understand why you shouldn't have one. Cause although the procedure doesn't hurt, the emotions hurt like hell. And they could never relate to losing your child and heart all in one day.

That must have been rather hard for you to type out for everyone here to read Lyn, and thank you for doing so.

I am still pro-choice, as I believe it is up to the individual to choose, after they have been informed of all their options.

I can completly understand people who are pro-choice and I am in no way trying to...convert people or whatever you want to call it. I understand that some circumstaces do almost call for an abortion, such as rape, or just honestly, not being able to have a child for whatever reasons.
But I do believe if you are going to make a choice like that, you should realize the consequences it will cause. And I do believe you cannot have a true non-biased opinion about such things as this unless you are informed about the topic you are planning to have such a strong opinion about.
So what if your catholic? Does that mean you shouldn't have an abortion? Of course not. I don't care if religion is the number one priority in your life, when it boils down to it and you have to choose when you are ACTUALLY in the situation everything you once believed in is completly gone. And a whole new slew of thoughts and opinions enter your mind. Im catholic, and my religion had nothing to do with the choice I made.
And for those who are pro-abortion, I would assume they aren't too informed at all. I can understand supporting life, and I can understand supporting choice, but supporting the death of a baby who could be 22 weeks old I find quite ridiculous.

Very controversial topic, i have come in late on this one so i hope its not too late to add my opinion on this and hope no one minds a fresh opinion, but than i guess it might bring some new topics or points to the conversation.

Personally, i would never have an abortion unless i was raped. If you were raped the child would be yours unlawfully. It would lead to many emotional complications for the mother and eventually the kid. After such a vicious attack majourity of vicitims after there attacks want to move on and try and put it in the past which majourity of the time they cant. The child should not have to be brought into the world with that to find out that he or she was concieved threw a viciour form of attack..

Other than that i dont agree with young girls who accidently get pregnant due to careless mistakes should not be allowed to have an abortion. If your not educated enough on the topic and now the consquences than your not ready to be having sex. These days sex is looked upon as "fun" or "your cool if you have sex" by the younger side of society which is wrong. If you cant cope with being a parent you should NOT be having sex.

In Australia, i'm not sure if you get it in the states or in other countries but our government has a tax which pays you when you have a child. At the moment when you have a child 6 weeks after the baby is born the mother recieves $5000.00. And it is payed to ANYONE who has a child. There is a big agruement going around because there has been an increase in 16 year olds having babies just for the money and spending it on drugs and alchol and stuff for themselves. They actually showed 16 year olds on tv confessing to having a baby or two just to get the money for themselves and than these kids end up in foster care.

Myself, I am having a baby in 9 weeks so i will recieve the money but me and my partner have decided exactly what were putting that money to and its all going to the baby and paying off a loan which doesnt have much more to go but that will also benefit the baby and our pays.

Chloe
xx

Someone on another forum I'm on made a very good point about abortion I thought I would post here:

For people who say that it's okay when it's rape, most of those people say that abortion is murder. So if abortion is murder, why is murder suddenly okay when the situation is rape? "Real" murder doesn't change with the situation "Oh, he was shot? That's murder. Stabbed? Not so much."

Not saying that is my opinion, just thought it was an interesting perspective I had never heard before.


I obviously understand this reasoning - but someone on another forum had addressed this as well and thought I'd share what they said on this as well. Yes, it's a woman's body - but the man help put the child there. The 'fetus' is not just hers because it is in her body, it is the "property" of them both. So why should the mother be allowed to abort if the father still wants the child, it's just as much his as it is hers.

Once again, neither of those are necessarily my opinion - just thought they were interesting perspectives I would share.

Thats a really well worded opinion.

Because if both people disagree, then only one person can get what they want. Since the decision can, in the end, only be made by one person, it makes far more sense for that person to be the one who is more affected by the pregnancy.

Why should a father be allowed to make the mother have the child if she doesn't want the child? It's just as much hers as it is his.

It works both ways. In the end, only one person can get what they want, if they disagree. Anyone would be crazy to suggest that the father should have more of a say than the mother, for obvious reasons. Hence why it's her choice.

She shouldn't, if you are still with this person, and you care about them I don't think the mother should not take the fathers wishes into consideration. It's true, I feel so much pain from what I've done, and no one involved will ever be able to feel what i feel but that doesn't mean Alex(the father/my boyfriend) doesn't feel the same way emotionally, it doesn't mean he isn't bothered by the fact our child will never be born into this world. He crys too. He wanted it too. The situation with us is different, I wanted to keep it, as did he. But he told me he wanted what I wanted, because in the end it was my decision which of course is true. And in my situation I was corced into my decision by my parents and doctor, but regardless of the fact the father should have a say. I'm not saying the mother should give birth just because the father wants her to if she feels strongly about having an abortion, but if your in a commited relationship with the person, what they think is a HUGE importance in the mothers end decision. It takes two to make a baby, it should take two to make a decision.

So what happens if the two people disagree? You can only abort or not abort. There is no middle ground. Only ONE person can get what they want.

And you said in your first sentence that a woman shouldn't be allowed to have an abortion if the father disagrees with it. Therefore, you think that the father should have the final say. Is this not what you said?

Heres my opinion..
if abortion is being considered than the couple arnt obviously old enough/not ready and if the baby gets born and the couple fall apart than all of the respaonsibility goes straight to the mother.. Not fair

What if the couple are 40 years old? Are they "not old enough"?

Did it ever occur to you that some people simply don't want to have children (either ever, or at a particular point in time)?

^^^ yeh but i meant in like younger couples.

That's not true what so ever. To me, you basically said, if you consider having an abortion, you don't love you child because you aren't ready and old enough. First off just because you consider abortion doesn't mean you not ready or not old enough. I had an abortion, so are you saying I wasn't ready or old enough. Thats quite an assumption to make. You cannot judge when someone else is ready for children, that is not your place what so ever. You have to be both emotionally and fiancially ready.
Having a child is hard emotionally, but no one is EVER ready emotionally to have a child. But you learn. Just because you're young and considering abortion doesn't mean you aren't ready to love youre child, it is because you already do love you're child and in the end you do want whats best for you're child, which is a good life. Sure, in that case adoption is a wonderful option. But it is also an extremly hard one. I carred my child for 4 months, and I was more attached to it more than you could ever believe. I could never imagine giving birth to him or her then giving him to another couple. Never knowing what their life would be life, or how it would have been with me. There is open adoption, but then agian could you sit and watch your child being raised by another couple? Watch him call someone else mommy and not you? That would break my heart.
Now finacially, I had quite a bit of money saved, as did my boyfriend. We actually sat down and made a list of everything we would have needed before the birth and after the birth. We got prices on everything and added up the costs. And we could have done it, of course it would have been hard, but it was possible. In the end, I did have an abortion. And what you also must consider is that having an abortion is also not always you're choice. In my case I didn't want one, but I was pushed into it almost. Regardless if you can understand that, that was the situation. Just because you have an abortion doesn't mean you weren't old enough and ready, you may have truley felt you were, but if everyone else around you is telling you otherwise you start to question yourself and you start to question the best decision and sometimes everyone else was wrong, and you have made a mistake.
One of my best friends has a son, HE doesn't live with his child but gets him each and every weekend. He was 17 when the baby was born. Just because you're not with the person you had a child with them and youre young doesn't mean you won't take responcibiltiy. It does happen, and it happens quite often, but that is based on a lot of things not just age.
By saying "If you have an abortion or thinking about having one you aren't ready or old enough" you are labeling everyone who has considers an abortion to be an unfit parent. And to be honest, I find that quite offensive. Because I think I would be quite a good parent. I'm quite good with children infact. I worked at an elementry school for almost two years helping two kindergarten children, one polish boy who couldn't speak a word of english with downsyndrome and another with both physical and metal disabilities and although I was teaching them, they taught me more than I could have ever hoped about children and taking care of children. I have babysat dozens of children and volunteered at hospitals and schools. Also, not only young people have abortions, infact there was two woman in their 40's there when I had my ab. One had about 5 little boys and the other was unmarried and had no children. You are making too many uninformed generlizations without any evidence to back it up.